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Thread: robot goes backward instead of forward?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by guest2012 View Post
    1. Thanks for your help. This is my question. Do we lose any points if one tomato or one carrot falls down on the mat on the way going back to the dining table?
    No, you don't lose any points, but you would not get two points for delivering the rest of the carrots if one carrot falls down on the mat.

    Quote Originally Posted by guest2012 View Post
    2. If you emptied one of the dispensers and you took all bacteria and viruses to the base, but you did not empty the rest of the dispensers (the 3 others - you just left them), then do you get 7 points? Do you get 12 points?
    What do the rules state?
    SCORING CONDITION(S): Empty dispensers are worth
    ---12 POINTS EACH, if NO bacteria is touching the mat outside Base.
    -----------OR-----------
    ---7 POINTS EACH, if ANY bacteria is touching the mat outside Base.
    If you empty one of the dispensers, but leave the other dispensers alone, which scoring condition applies?

    Quote Originally Posted by guest2012 View Post
    3. What if one or a few of the bacterias have fallen down on the mat, would the referee remove them? Because they might block the way when the robot is moving for another mission. What if the yellow truck or the harvester moved from the correct position unintentionally, are we allowed to return it back to the correct position? Does the referee return it back? Do we lose a touch penality object if we do so?
    No, you can't move things outside of base. In general, the referee should not move things either. There are a few exceptions, such as the Pollution Reversal balls. You can touch the robot, and incur the touch penalty, but you can't touch the yellow truck at all outside of base.
    Changing Things Outside Base — You may not hand-place, extend, roll, topple, drop, throw, eject, slide, or shoot
    things outside Base, even partly. You may not hand-change the position, motion, quantity, or other status of things outside
    Base. Only the robot may make changes outside Base, including the addition and removal of objects. See exceptions
    in the “Touch Penalties,” “Storage And Workspace,” and “Failure And Loss” rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by guest2012 View Post
    4. The other thing is regarding the position of the light sensors, are they best connected to the robot in the front? Is it okay if we place them in the middle of the robot or in the back of the robot?
    That's a very good question. The answer in part depends upon what you are trying to do with the light sensors. If you just trying to detect lines and not follow them, than the position doesn't matter very much. It can actually be helpful to have the sensor in the middle of the robot so that the light sensor is well-shielded from outside light sources. If you are trying to follow lines, you want the sensor toward the front of the robot, so it is in front of the robot's drive wheels.

    Quote Originally Posted by guest2012 View Post
    I hope I'm not asking tooooo much :P
    Feel free to ask questions, but make sure you read the rules carefully and try to come up with your own answer first if possible. If you read the rules, and still are unsure, then please don't hesitate to ask questions here.

    Most of the FLL teams have already finished their "Food Factor" season. What region are you competing in? Just curious...

  2. #72
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    I hope I'm not asking tooooo much :P
    It's fun answering questions, we're starting to pine-away for the next season already!

    1.Do we lose any points if one tomato or one carrot falls down on the mat on the way going back to the dining table?
    Yes. The groceries only count for points if you put them and their container on the table, so if part is lying on the mat, you aren't scoring points for that unit. You get two points for each complete grocery unit on the table. There are two units of groceries in the yellow truck; the "carrots and tomatoes" are one unit, and the "bananas" are the other. Also see Robot Game Update #7.

    2. If you emptied one of the dispensers and you took all bacteria and viruses to the base, but you did not empty the rest of the dispensers (the 3 others - you just left them), then do you get 7 points? Do you get 12 points?
    At the end of the run, count up the number of empty dispensers, and look for any bacteria left on the mat outside of base. If there are any bacteria on the mat, each empty dispenser scores 7 points. If there are no bacteria on the mat, each empty dispenser scores 12 points. So, you'll get 7, 14, 21, or 28 points if there are any bacteria on the mat. You'll get 12, 24, 36, or 48 points if there are no bacteria on the mat.

    Note also that it's only the bacteria that have to be off the mat (not the virus).

    3. What if one or a few of the bacterias have fallen down on the mat, would the referee remove them? Because they might block the way when the robot is moving for another mission. What if the yellow truck or the harvester moved from the correct position unintentionally, are we allowed to return it back to the correct position? Does the referee return it back? Do we lose a touch penality object if we do so?
    See Rule #19, it covers a lot of this.

    The referee will not remove any fallen germs from the mat.

    You cannot touch any objects outside of base other than your robot or its cargo.

    Touching either (your robot or its cargo) costs one touch penalty.

    There are only a couple of cases where the referee will handle game objects. This gets a little tricky:
    - The referee may remove the pollution balls from the table after you've knocked them off their rings. This is because they can roll around the mat and potentially jam or trigger other mission models, or block your robot's movements. See Robot Game Update #26.
    - If you rescue your robot when it is outside of base, the referee will remove from the table any mission models that the robot is transporting as cargo (unless the cargo was with the robot when it left base).
    - If your robot is returning to base with a mission model, and you touch the robot before the model is inside the base, that model will be removed from the table. You do not score any points for it. Make sure the robot and its cargo are in base before you touch either of them.

    For example, if your robot is bringing the truck back to base, but you touch your robot before the truck crosses the base boundary, the referee will remove the truck.

    See Rules 11 and 18, and Robot Game Update #30.
    Also, Rule 21 defines when objects are considered "in base".

    4. The other thing is regarding the position of the light sensors, are they best connected to the robot in the front? Is it okay if we place them in the middle of the robot or in the back of the robot?
    It's OK to put them wherever they accomplish what you desire. There are advantages and disadvantages. The farther the light sensors are from the drive axis of the robot, the more they will swerve side-to-side when the robot turns. If they're in "front" of the drive axis, they will swing in the same direction as the turn. If you put them "behind" the drive axis, they're swing the opposite direction of the turn. You can also vary how close together they are. Close-spacing is good for tracking both sides of a black line, for example. Widely separated sensors are good for getting the robot perpendicular to a line. It all depends on how you want to use them.
    FTC Judge: 2010
    FLL Volunteer: 2011-2013
    FLL Mentor: 2011, 2012
    FLL referee: 2012, 2013 (QT-head)
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  3. #73
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by timdavid View Post
    No, you don't lose any points, but you would not get two points for delivering the rest of the carrots if one carrot falls down on the mat.

    What do the rules state?

    If you empty one of the dispensers, but leave the other dispensers alone, which scoring condition applies?


    Most of the FLL teams have already finished their "Food Factor" season. What region are you competing in? Just curious...
    Oh that is so picky. Just one carrot would make you lose 2 points. I think we shouldn't do it then.

    You know why I am asking about the dispensers. That is because someone who went for the tournament told me even if you empty one dispenser and take all the bacteria of the one dispenser to the base, then you still get 7 points because you did not empty the other 3 dispensers and did not touch them. So, why bother? But I was not feeling confident and this is why I decided to ask.

    Regarding the use of sensors, we are currently attaching two light sensors. Shall we leave a distance of about 2 - 3 cm between the two sensors? Is 1 cm in between good enough?

    And yes I think the food factor season is almost finished, but we are still waiting here in Saudi. I mean people in the US are more experienced and it is more technologically developed. We are still beginners, but I really love what the kids are doing. I could never imagine that they could bring such wonderful ideas and that they are capable of doing such things.
    Last edited by guest2012; 04-04-2012 at 03:12 PM.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by guest2012 View Post

    Regarding the use of sensors, we are currently attaching two light sensors. Shall we leave a distance of about 2 - 3 cm between the two sensors? Is 1 cm in between good enough?
    Try an experiment, and see what works best for your robot and what you're trying to accomplish.
    FTC Judge: 2010
    FLL Volunteer: 2011-2013
    FLL Mentor: 2011, 2012
    FLL referee: 2012, 2013 (QT-head)
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  5. #75
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by guest2012 View Post
    ... someone who went for the tournament told me even if you empty one dispenser and take all the bacteria of the one dispenser to the base, then you still get 7 points because you did not empty the other 3 dispensers and did not touch them. So, why bother? But I was not feeling confident and this is why I decided to ask.
    You should get 12 points for that scenario, not 7. The number of points should only be reduced to 7 if one of the bacteria from any of the dispensers ends up touching the mat outside of base at the end of the match..

    Quote Originally Posted by guest2012 View Post
    And yes I think the food factor season is almost finished, but we are still waiting here in Saudi. I mean people in the US are more experienced and it is more technologically developed. We are still beginners, but I really love what the kids are doing. I could never imagine that they could bring such wonderful ideas and that they are capable of doing such things.
    I'm glad you are having fun with your team. I think it's great that kids from around the world participate in FLL. Having your season extend a little later is fine also. As Tom stated, it gives us something to do while we wait for "Senior Solutions".

  6. #76
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by timdavid View Post
    As Tom stated, it gives us something to do while we wait for "Senior Solutions".
    For some reason, I keep having visions of brick sorters being re-purposed to dispense medications.
    FTC Judge: 2010
    FLL Volunteer: 2011-2013
    FLL Mentor: 2011, 2012
    FLL referee: 2012, 2013 (QT-head)
    FRC judge (Chairman's Award): 2014

  7. #77
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Mosher View Post
    Close-spacing is good for tracking both sides of a black line, for example. Widely separated sensors are good for getting the robot perpendicular to a line. It all depends on how you want to use them.
    Thank you for taking the time to explain all this. I feel I really understand very well now. We are trying to make use of the sensors. Someone said you should keep 2 - 3 cm in between, while another person said 1 cm is good enough. We are trying to use them, and we noticed that the robot confuses the "white" with the blue water area on its way going to the sink. We tried to calibrate sensors again and we looked at the value of the colors in there, but it never reached 60. It was maximum 54 in the blue area very close to the sink. It is weird that the robot stops there when it is supposed to stop on the white line instead of the blue water area. That's confusing!!

    Another issue is when each robot gives a different value when is calibrated. We have two robots that have EXACTLY the same design, but one gives a value of 41 on a black line, while the other one gives a value of 38 on a black line. We are doing the claibration in school and on the same table. Isn't it weird??

    The third thing is the tall white wheels are too long when attached to the robot, and when we do a number of missions they open wider. I am not sure how to explain this but the problem is we have to press on the wheels and fix them so they do not open wide after a couple of missions because they are tall.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Mosher View Post
    Try an experiment, and see what works best for your robot and what you're trying to accomplish.
    Two minutes and a half is a very short time to do all the missions. Compared to videos and missions done by other teams on youtube, I felt we cannot do all the amazing mechanics and programming they're doing. Some of them are even changing wheels as they change missions.

    I really liked the video you attched to one of the replies for the red robot. That was a very simple design, with very simple mechanics and pieces used for the missions. The kids saw it and loved it. But the programming is amazing. I wish we could learn how to program same way they are programming. I wish I could see how they program their robot. It's a great one. The kids are trying and trying, but doing two missions together is challenging for us, and this is why we cannot finish in 2.5 minutes. I feel bad.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by timdavid View Post
    You should get 12 points for that scenario, not 7. The number of points should only be reduced to 7 if one of the bacteria from any of the dispensers ends up touching the mat outside of base at the end of the match..


    I'm glad you are having fun with your team. I think it's great that kids from around the world participate in FLL. Having your season extend a little later is fine also. As Tom stated, it gives us something to do while we wait for "Senior Solutions".
    Yeah... Thanks. We'll try our best, and I hope my kids won't get disappointed if we don't win any award.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: robot goes backward instead of forward?

    Quote Originally Posted by guest2012 View Post
    Two minutes and a half is a very short time to do all the missions. Compared to videos and missions done by other teams on youtube, I felt we cannot do all the amazing mechanics and programming they're doing.
    I do hope you realize that the videos on youtube represent the best efforts of some of the most accomplished teams in the world. I hope the videos inspire rookie teams to try more things and learn new techniques, but rookie teams should not feel discouraged if they cannot come close to duplicating the feats they see on youtube. Moreover, even with all the knowledge and techniques these teams had, this year none of the teams have managed to complete all of the missions in two and a half minutes.

    I think once you get to a tournament, you will have a more accurate understanding of what most teams accomplish on the mission field.

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