downloading myBlocks for FLL

[RvRDilemma]

Since the thread of downloading/copying/"getting ideas from" myBlocks seems to be a hot topic at the moment, I would like to take a survey.

Question 1: Have you or your team come across a useful myBlock only that could benefit your FLL team in some way [including lineFollowers, lightCalibration, and wrappers]?

Question 2: Has the team used the myBlock [concept] in their FLL program in any way?

Question 3: Have they credited the originator of the code explicitly in any way?

Question 4: Do you think high scoring teams benefit from other team's published myBlocks?

Question 5: Do you think the practice of getting ideas in this way should be allowed by FLL? If not, how should it be controlled? Should FLL spell it out in their rules? Have they already done so?

[dcsastry]

Originally Posted by RvRDilemma

Since the thread of downloading/copying/"getting ideas from" myBlocks seems to be a hot topic at the moment, I would like to take a survey.

Question 1: Have you or your team come across a useful myBlock only that could benefit your FLL team in some way [including lineFollowers, lightCalibration, and wrappers]?

Obviously in the spirit of FLL, sharing what you learn is important. However, doing other team's homework by providing code is probably not the best way to do that. However, I think it is probably OK, because one team's code will likely not work with another teams robot, and would require many changes to make it usable. For this reason, I see some teams in the past have posted solutions to problems on their websites, but many of these are watered down, or just "pictures" of the programs with comments.

You may want to check out http://www.nxtprograms.com This is a site run by an experienced FLL coach, who put together building instructions and sample programs to solve many of the things you mention above.

Originally Posted by RvRDilemma

Question 2: Has the team used the myBlock [concept] in their FLL program in any way?

Our team has used lots of MyBlocks this year. There are lots of "gotcha's" when using MyBlocks, and a "google" of the web will bring you many team experiences and methodologies. MyBlocks allow you to simplify programs, but there is also a performance benefit. If you can merge all your robot missions into a single "master" program, you also benefit by reducing FLASH storage memory on the NXT. But there are limitations to how much code you can put into a single program.

Originally Posted by RvRDilemma

Question 3: Have they credited the originator of the code explicitly in any way?

If a team uses code taken from another team, it is definitely something you want to mention. In our first year, the team was finding it very difficult to create their first robot. So, they copied a design from a website and used that for the entire season, but modified the design for their own use. They made sure the judges understood that this is how they came up with their design. In terms of programming, all the code they have developed has been on their own, using hours and hours of trial and error to discover what works best.

Originally Posted by RvRDilemma

Question 4: Do you think high scoring teams benefit from other team's published myBlocks?

I doubt it very much. Most teams develop their own programs specific to their robot designs. But many younger teams learn key methodologies by talking with older more experienced teams, or going through published material on the internet.

Originally Posted by RvRDilemma

Question 5: Do you think the practice of getting ideas in this way should be allowed by FLL? If not, how should it be controlled? Should FLL spell it out in their rules? Have they already done so?

I think that FLL has established a very good set of principles with their core values that apply to this directly. Teams should share what they learn, but they are the ones who need to do the work with the guidance of coaches.

I know of cases in long the past where FLL coaches did much of the work for the kids, and the kids did very well at competition with the robot game. But the kids have no sense of accomplishment, and tend to feel it is a waste of time for them and loose interest.

My personal belief that sharing code is OK in the sense that it will show teams what is possible in the NXT system, and most likely would require significant amount of work to adapt code between robots. It would be the same as buying example code from a learning source, or a detailed FLL robotics book. As long as the kids must learn to adapt that code to their robot designs, I think the learn experience is still valid. Engineers generally do not reinvent the wheel every time they work on a project - generally they build upon the achievements of others.

[BlueCheesyFlamingos]

Good questions!

Question 1: Have you or your team come across a useful myBlock only that could benefit your FLL team in some way [including lineFollowers, lightCalibration, and wrappers]?

We have come across my block concepts but I don't think we have ever actually copied a specific chunk of code.



Question 2: Has the team used the myBlock [concept] in their FLL program in any way?

Yep we have used a couple of the concepts we learned about on here and some other sites/books.



Question 3: Have they credited the originator of the code explicitly in any way?

Since the kids didn't copy anything, just the idea, and there was more than one team participating in the discussion they did not give credit to a specific team just a general mention of the forums.



Question 4: Do you think high scoring teams benefit from other team's published myBlocks?

No. Team at this level already have the knowledge to do this.



Question 5: Do you think the practice of getting ideas in this way should be allowed by FLL? If not, how should it be controlled? Should FLL spell it out in their rules? Have they already done so?

Yes code sharing should be allowed by FLL. As a developer this is something I do everyday in the real world. Sharing of code is one things that makes a good development community. Now with that said always give credit where credit is due. If you copy something line by line, a comment stating it should be included in the code.

I know that in some states judges have copies of some of the more popular code snippets from different sites. And they are fine with the kids using the code as long as they give credit. Of course they do take the fact that the code wasn't written by them into consideration during judging.

[Tom Mosher]

Originally Posted by RvRDilemma

Since the thread of downloading/copying/"getting ideas from" myBlocks seems to be a hot topic at the moment, I would like to take a survey.

Question 4: Do you think high scoring teams benefit from other team's published myBlocks?

An interesting follow-up to Question 4 would be to include not only the use of works published by other teams, but material from the team's own library (e.g. programs written in previous years by students who are no longer members of the team).

[SciQuest]

Originally Posted by Tom Mosher

An interesting follow-up to Question 4 would be to include not only the use of works published by other teams, but material from the team's own library (e.g. programs written in previous years by students who are no longer members of the team).

How is it interesting? Of course teams with experience and a function library are at an advantage (in terms of performance potential).

[Tom Mosher]

Interesting, in that I'm curious to what degree the re-use of previously developed programming is a common practice.

[SciQuest]

Originally Posted by Tom Mosher

Interesting, in that I'm curious to what degree the re-use of previously developed programming is a common practice.

I'm sure a lot of first year teams dont think about it. But by the third year a team has made a TURN myblock, they (or the adults) might just catch on that reinventing the wheel is inefficient.

[timdavid]

Originally Posted by Tom Mosher

An interesting follow-up to Question 4 would be to include not only the use of works published by other teams, but material from the team's own library (e.g. programs written in previous years by students who are no longer members of the team).

Originally Posted by SciQuest

How is it interesting? Of course teams with experience and a function library are at an advantage (in terms of performance potential).

The interesting ethical question is whether it is acceptable for a team to use MyBlocks that were developed by a former member of the team. For example, if a 9th grader develops a block to align with lines for Body Forward and then leaves the team, it is OK for the remaining team members to use that MyBlock for Food Factor?

I like the approach that Linda suggested, where team members can look at the code from previous years, but must recreate it instead of using it directly. As a coach, if my team members want to re-use MyBlocks from a previous year, I want to be sure they thoroughly understand the software. Forcing them to recreate would be a reasonable way to prove that they understand it.

[RvRDilemma]

Thanks for all of the replies. My questions were partially meant to be rhetorical. I agree with Timdavid that FLL is about the process. And kids making the complete journey maximum their benefit from the program. The only part I don't agree with is the use of someone else's robot design should be treated differently than use of someone else's programs. I agree that it's easier to download and use code over coping someone else's design from youtube. But that's only from a development time standpoint, not for a creative insight standpoint. Both design and program play an important role in robot performance [I would say equally so].

I only think maturity of engineering concepts should factor into the judging process [for robot design]. If kids borrow from a concept, they should credit it. And I think the kids should be held accountable.

[sonicboom]

We look at a lot of books and sample code in the off-season. There is no other way my teams would learn it because *I* don't know how to do it. We look at them, dissect them, figure it out and then they write their own and test it out. For many teams like ours, there is no way to learn how to code because we don't have a programmer helping us and it would take years to reinvent the wheel.

At the start of the season, we start with a new file folder and they build whatever they need. We haven't gotten to the point of having a block so complicated that it can't be rebuilt, but I think I would still make them. Long-standing teams already have such an advantage (knowledgeable coaches, mentors and presumably some team members) that they don't need even more of an advantage by using code from people who are no longer members. Just imo.

It hadn't even occurred to me that it would be allowed for them to use someone else's code but I guess as long as it is noted, it would be fair for the robot design portion, but what about performance? Especially since that score is specifically now part of qualifying, using large chunks of code that isn't theirs could throw off the "bell curve" of scores and disqualify a team that wrote their own code through and through.