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  • Week 1 Observations and questions

    I'm writing this up so that I don't lose track or forget anything for the conference call.

    Things I noted that were a little strange but very important:
    1. If FMS is shut down, the default match times needed to be reset. You could do Reset to Default and this would reset it, or change it manually, but auto and teleop times were incorrect.
    2. It would default to zero balls and let you start a match if the ref hadn't entered the balls for an alliance
    3. Things didn't play correctly if an alliance had zero balls. The refs had to put 1 ball, score it in the low goal, and then the scorekeeper had to unscore it.
    4. We had ref panels acting up on occasion. Ref would try to score High and it would score Low goal and that had to be manually fixed. (Happened twice with one panel, different refs.)
    5. Ref panels stopped allowing input almost immediately at the end of match, not the 5 seconds they were expecting, so I had to add things in that happened at the last second. Also, there isn't an indication to the refs what was scored at the end of the match, so they would come check to make sure things scored correctly.
    6. Dead ball is very confusing for everyone.
    7. It looks like a point isn't added automatically for a tie break. (I could not understand the answer to this question during the call last week. Can you verify this one, please?)
    8. You cannot print reports after prestarting a match if you're in a timeout.

    That's all I can think of right now. It was a pretty crazy weekend.

  • #2
    Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

    I don't like to jump into other volunteer boards, but I'd like to add to Cheri's report for what she missed when she was out sick on Saturday. (I was the head ref.)

    (2) and (3) were corrected, sort of, with the software update. Now the green light will not go on until the ref enters the balls. But we still have what we called the "no no no" problem. If a ref enters "no no no", the match starts, but you can't ever exit Auton. Instead, enter "yes yes yes" and then change it to "no no no" and I believe it works.

    (4) I believe it was the same panel, the "Undo" sticks on. So the ref would undo a possession, then couldn't end the cycle because the Undo was still on.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

      Additional notes from my Week 1:

      1. Instead of getting the Head Ref's attention to have the refs enter the number of balls each match, I tried entering the number of balls, but that locked/disabled the Ref's touchpads from any further input during that match.

      2. Reminder about Audience Screen control: ensure that at the beginning of each match, Video & Score are selected; and that Match Result is selected at the end of each match after Post Results is selected - a couple times the A/V crew had to tell us to manually switch because FMS did not change the settings.

      3. Biggest problem (and lengthy discussion here): There were a LOT of Referee discussions at the end of the matches regarding scores and fouls, which resulted in a big delay in posting and committing (and presetting the next match). Often the announcers would move on to announcing the next match even though we were still working on finalizing the previous match; once they started this, the A/V would not display the final scores after we posted them due to what was happening on the field for the next match. Announcements were made regarding changes in scores, but the teams would remember what the final displayed scores were, then question the Head Ref why the changes when the match results were finalized. Often that happened many matches later, when they realized that they had lost instead of winning a match. This was happening especially on Friday, and to some degree on Saturday during the Qualification matches. When the teams would question the refs, they could not recall exactly why the changes were made at the end of the match. Related to this, there were a number of times that when the refs were slow to enter goals during Autonomous mode, so the goals would appear during TELEOP. And many times the ref would indicate a HOT goal with no goals shown, probably because it was entered during the switch to TELEOP. Also the refs sometimes would score a high goal when it should have been a low goal. Trusses and assists were rarely missed. Also, a number of times there was lengthy discussion on whether fouls were regular or technical, and often we had to change what they had recorded. To alleviate these problems, on Saturday we instituted these changes:
      A. All changes after match was over had to come from the Head Ref.
      B. I handmade a "spreadsheet" where I recorded match #, final score displayed at the end of the match to audience, any/all changes made by the Head Ref, why the changes were necessary, final score posted and committed.
      C. Scorekeepers watched closely the match and each score posted by the refs to ensure that they were recorded in the correct phase and that the correct goals were noted. Differences were checked with the Head Ref at the end of the match before scores were changed (and noted per A. above).
      D. Scorekeepers questioned ALL fouls with the Head Ref to ensure the correct ones were selected.
      E. During the Elimination and matches, the FTAAs would go to the refs during play (when their time permitted) to question their scoring if the scorekeepers noted an error, so correction could be made while the match was underway and the scores were "real time".

      These changes eliminated much confusion and confrontation on Saturday.

      4. FMS worked fine, did not shut down or malfunction that necessitated a restart.

      5. Agree with #4, 5, 6, 7, 8 in Cheri's post; I cannot recall any zero balls during Autonomous so did not encounter #2, 3. We had many instances on Friday where refs panels locked up and would not accept scores (perhaps caused by ref - not sure on this).
      Last edited by BikerDan; 03-02-2014, 04:36 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

        Another question:

        Per the rules, if bumpers come off a robot is supposed to be disabled. What is the best way to disable the robot? At my event, the head ref would run over to e-stop the robot, but he never got there once before the match ended. Should HR be communicating with us and having us disable robots?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

          Originally posted by Cheri View Post
          Per the rules, if bumpers come off a robot is supposed to be disabled. What is the best way to disable the robot? At my event, the head ref would run over to e-stop the robot, but he never got there once before the match ended. Should HR be communicating with us and having us disable robots?
          My head referee had me disable robots when that happened. I gave the team a red card, and that disabled the robots in-match. Watch out, though, once they have a red card they're disabled for the rest of the match (you can't re-enable them).

          -Danny

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

            Oh baby, I've got a grocery list from the Alamo Regional.

            (1) Remember that Truss Lights and the Green "Field Clear" lights cannot be controlled/tested by the scorekeepers, only the referees via their panels. We wanted to test the truss lights several times (we took down the truss for Friday Awards and we wanted to test the lights when we put it back up) but we couldn't do anything with those lights from the scorekeeper.

            (2) For rookie scorekeepers, remember ESPECIALLY for practice matches that when you add/change team numbers that you click OUTSIDE the team number box for the team to take effect. I noticed this year that if you quickly prestart a practice match and then back out, changes you make to the numbers will actually take effect and show on the team panels - so you can verify you've entered teams before prestarting a final time.

            (3) During practice matches before we had any referees we kept forgetting to add ball counts, it was such a pain. Remember to do that!

            (4) Every time we locked the display on the computer, and logged back in, the audience screen kept "jumping" so that we had to drag it around and recenter it. I eventually ended up closing the audience panel and restarting it, and on the 3rd time (after we had some audio issues) I reopened the audience panel and I didn't have a problem from that point on. We eventually figured out it was because each time we opened the panel we'd swapped to and from the 16:9 and 4:3 settings. Lesson learned - don't screw with the 16:9 and 4:3 settings, if you can just use the 4:3 default just go with that (for us the 16:9 never worked right with the A/V guys anyway).

            (5) I had an error with the USB Backup all weekend, after each match it would tell me the backup location was not set. We never got it resolved; we made sure there were no spaces in the location, that the location existed, and so on. There apparently were bigger issues Matt/Chuck had to deal with.

            (6) Match Generation was harder than last year. We had to do a lot of math on our own to figure out how many matches we could actually play in a day, how many matches were going to be before lunch, and the exact duration of lunch to ensure the first match after lunch was exactly at 1:00pm. It wasn't HARD, it was just a pain. Be sure to use the "end of day" time calculations to help tweak match counts each day. Though for elims none of the timing stuff matters. And just FYI, 6-minute turnaround in Quals is a statistical improbability for a Week-1 regional. We averaged 7 minute cycle times - that would have been a MUCH better option. We did the 6-minute cycle times with 10 matches per team and were 45 minutes late each day.

            (7) A couple times a couple of the ref screens didn't show that we had actually prestarted the matches and wouldn't let the referees enter the ball counts - we had to back out of prestart and restart prestart just for the ref panels.

            (8) Ref panels were a MASSIVE PROBLEM for us, I cannot stress this enough. They aren't very snappy, and the referees kept treating them as if they were. Often times the referees have to press the buttons multiple times and wait up to a second for the panels to update, but referees would tap "truss", "assist", "high goal" and "submit" very quickly, and what would end up happen is you'd get 1 assist and a new cycle in the software (the truss and high goal would get lost). ALL WEEKEND we had teams coming up to us and telling us their scores were wrong, that we didn't record goals or assists or trusses, and so on. The announcers kept commenting that the scores didn't update when important things happened (like truss, goals, etc...) and it was a massive problem. Some of the referees stopped recording fouls because they hated switching between the scoring/foul screens - they called the fouls in to the head referee and I'd have to update the fouls at the end of the match.

            (9) OMG, I absolutely wish the software wouldn't show a line for Cycle 1 until Cycle 1 actually started (it doesn't show a line for Cycle 2 until cycle 2 is started, why does it show a line for Cycle 1 by default??!?). It's very very difficult to keep track of whether or not the autonomous balls have been accounted for in Cycle 0 since you have to keep swapping between auto and teleop to see what's been accounted for and not. UGH! With all the problems we had with ref panels, we had a bunch of people watching matches and the scorekeeper display to make absolutely sure things were scored correctly. It was really hard to deal with the transition between Cycle 0 and Cycle 1.

            (10) When a field fault occurs - not "if", but "when" - and you have to stop a match, when you press "pause" and then "reset" on the FCUI the FTA display only shows the "pause", the FTA panel doesn't see that you've actually stopped the match with the "reset". You need to press "prestart" ASAP so that the FTA can know that the field is safe.

            (11) FMS wouldn't let me substitute a robot. After selecting the team I wanted to replace, the default "0" in the field where I type in the backup robot number wouldn't change. Matt logged in and tried to do it himself, but couldn't. I had to restart FMS for it to allow me to do it.

            (12) Echo to Cheri's #8 - you cannot access reports while in a timeout. We use the timeout feature between Quarter->Semis and Semis->Finals, and I couldn't access reports while in the timeout.

            (13) Weirdest error EVER. Finals 1-1, we somehow ended up with 5 autonomous balls set for Blue Alliance (so there's definitely no error checking there) but the referees swear they didn't do it. We had 2 auto high hot goals (when there were not supposed to be any) and 3 teleop cycle-0 balls (this was correct). We have no idea where those 2 auto high hot goals came from. In Finals 1-1, we had to correct the score TWICE. We had "extra" referees hand-scoring Finals 1-2, and with all the referees being extra-extra careful we still missed a truss being entered (the "extra" referees caught it).

            What we REALLY need this year are dedicated people with touchpads scoring matches, not referees scoring matches. For all scorekeepers, I recommend heavily having 2 assistants and having those assistants keep track of alliance scoring on separate sheets - kinda like we had "hand counts" of frisbees last year - because match scoring seemed to be HEAVILY incorrect almost always. In my personal opinion as a coach of a team, it was an absolute joke/farce how many matches were scored wrong, and I'm not blaming the referees at all.

            -Danny
            Last edited by ddiaz; 03-02-2014, 10:44 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

              Oh, and I almost forgot (this would have been a BIG mistake to leave out):

              (14) WATCH OUT about changing scores in "Match Review". I had to change penalties (fouls/tech fouls) in Match Review a LOT. But I also had to change scores several times. One thing I found was that I COULD NOT edit any cycle information EXCEPT for Cycle 1 - when I clicked on the boxes for Cycle 2 and up, the boxes didn't change. This was very bad, because I couldn't modify assists, goals, or anything for cycles above cycle 1. I was able to alter the scores for teams by using the manual scoring adjustment, but ASSIST points couldn't be adjusted correctly. This meant at the end of Qualifications I had to hand-check all of the rankings manually to make sure that the teams were ranked properly thanks to updated ASSIST points. We were 40 minutes behind (because we used 6 minute cycle times, had to replay a match, and had to stop/restart 3 matches due to field faults) and I had to take EXTRA time before alliance selection to manually verify rankings - UGH.

              -Danny

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

                Thanks for posting this feedback, my comments are below.

                -Matt

                Originally posted by Cheri View Post
                I'm writing this up so that I don't lose track or forget anything for the conference call.

                Things I noted that were a little strange but very important:
                1. If FMS is shut down, the default match times needed to be reset. You could do Reset to Default and this would reset it, or change it manually, but auto and teleop times were incorrect.
                This is fixed for Week 2.

                Originally posted by Cheri View Post
                2. It would default to zero balls and let you start a match if the ref hadn't entered the balls for an alliance
                FMS defaults to "unknown" balls for Week 2, and increments based on the input from the Referee screens.

                Originally posted by Cheri View Post
                3. Things didn't play correctly if an alliance had zero balls. The refs had to put 1 ball, score it in the low goal, and then the scorekeeper had to unscore it.
                This has also been fixed for Week 2.

                Originally posted by Cheri View Post
                5. Ref panels stopped allowing input almost immediately at the end of match, not the 5 seconds they were expecting, so I had to add things in that happened at the last second. Also, there isn't an indication to the refs what was scored at the end of the match, so they would come check to make sure things scored correctly.
                The Referee screens have a 10 second delay at the end of the match before that automatically transition to the "Score successfully committed" screen. We'll be watching this during Week 2 to see if that timer should be increased. Please report instances of the screens transitioning in fewer than 10 seconds.

                Originally posted by Cheri View Post
                7. It looks like a point isn't added automatically for a tie break. (I could not understand the answer to this question during the call last week. Can you verify this one, please?)
                I apologize for the confusion during the Session #3 call. I confirmed today that there is a bug preventing these automatic tie breaks from working. The additionally point to break the tie will need to be entered manually for Week 2.

                Originally posted by Cheri View Post
                8. You cannot print reports after prestarting a match if you're in a timeout.
                This is correct and will be a limitation for Week 2 as well.
                FIRST®
                FRC Electrical Engineering Manager

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

                  Originally posted by ddiaz View Post
                  One thing I found was that I COULD NOT edit any cycle information EXCEPT for Cycle 1 - when I clicked on the boxes for Cycle 2 and up, the boxes didn't change.
                  I confirmed this today and we'll be working to introduce a fix for Week 2.

                  -Matt
                  FIRST®
                  FRC Electrical Engineering Manager

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

                    Originally posted by Cheri View Post
                    Another question:

                    Per the rules, if bumpers come off a robot is supposed to be disabled. What is the best way to disable the robot? At my event, the head ref would run over to e-stop the robot, but he never got there once before the match ended. Should HR be communicating with us and having us disable robots?
                    This is a good conversation to have with your Head Referee, FTA, and FTAA on the first day of the event. Working out a procedure for who/how robots will be disabled will save time and confusion "in the moment."

                    -Matt
                    FIRST®
                    FRC Electrical Engineering Manager

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

                      Originally posted by Gary Voshol View Post
                      I don't like to jump into other volunteer boards, but I'd like to add to Cheri's report for what she missed when she was out sick on Saturday. (I was the head ref.)

                      (2) and (3) were corrected, sort of, with the software update. Now the green light will not go on until the ref enters the balls. But we still have what we called the "no no no" problem. If a ref enters "no no no", the match starts, but you can't ever exit Auton. Instead, enter "yes yes yes" and then change it to "no no no" and I believe it works.

                      (4) I believe it was the same panel, the "Undo" sticks on. So the ref would undo a possession, then couldn't end the cycle because the Undo was still on.
                      Hi Gary,

                      We having fixes in for Week 2 for the "no no no" bug and the UNDO button.

                      -Matt
                      FIRST®
                      FRC Electrical Engineering Manager

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Week 1 Observations and questions

                        Originally posted by ddiaz View Post
                        For all scorekeepers, I recommend heavily having 2 assistants and having those assistants keep track of alliance scoring on separate sheets - kinda like we had "hand counts" of frisbees last year - because match scoring seemed to be HEAVILY incorrect almost always. In my personal opinion as a coach of a team, it was an absolute joke/farce how many matches were scored wrong, and I'm not blaming the referees at all.

                        -Danny
                        I would like to echo Danny's suggestion about having 2 assistants at the scoring table with you. I had the pleasure of being with Danny on Saturday morning and saw that it is a very busy game for the scorekeeper and referees this year. Get to know your Head Ref as you will be in constant contact with him/her throughout the day.

                        Mannie
                        Mannie Lowe
                        Mississippi FTC Affiliate Partner

                        Comment

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