Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Reviewing scoresheets

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Reviewing scoresheets

    We had a great time at the state tournament Saturday, and the team did well. However, one incident was a little unsettling for the team. On their last round, they did more missions with fewer robot retrievals than on the previous two rounds, and were therefore expecting a higher score. When the score was posted, it was lower than the other two rounds. The kids went through the proper appeal process, asking for the scoresheet to be reviewed and reentered in case there was a data entry error. The judges did this, and told the kids that the score was still the same. The judges would not let the team see the scoresheet. The boy who signed the scoresheet wanted to know if he had missed a referee error, and if so, what did he miss. He's very much a perfectionist and wants to learn from his mistakes. Is there a reason he was not allowed to look at the scoresheet again? He knew that once it is signed, it's official, and he would not have argued about any scoring errors on the sheet. If the score had been what the team expected, they would have been in third place rather than tenth in the rankings, so it was quite a disappointment to them.

    Linda

  • #2
    Re: Reviewing scoresheets

    At our tournaments in Minnesota, at the end of the day, the teams receive the scoresheets from the robot performance rounds along with the judging comments. It is too late to change any scores at that point, but at least it lets the team review the sheets and note where something may have been overlooked.

    Several seasons ago at a tournament, our team asked for corrections for the scores from two of our robot rounds. One time there was a data entry error, the other time the scoresheet had an error. The score was corrected both times. The corrections were to reduce the scores instead of increase them, so perhaps that made the officials more inclined to let the kids see the scoresheets and perform the correction.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Reviewing scoresheets

      Sorry to hear Linda, we had something very similar at qualifier. The sheet was signed and official, and we expected a data entry error. But they were given a chance to see the scoresheet and quickly discovered the error. It was marked incorrectly for the Theirs/Ours and also the touch penalty was marked at 2.0 for a single touch versys 2.5.

      But this was on the team, and they easily accepted it and were able to move on without any complaint - and learn to much more closely check the sheets before signing. Not being able to see the sheet leaves you guessing.

      I think everyone can accept that a signed scoresheet is a done deal. And from there only a data entry error could change a score (if discovered before all rounds complete and sent to the awards tally). If this is so, I see no reason for directors to decline requests to see the sheets. It is not like the rubric sheets with comments and such.

      Trained refs are in such short supply. And schedules are so tight, that 'honest' and 'gracious' confirmation of scores is left out in the cold. I know, head refs must have to deal with 'those' parents and coaches. But they also have to work folks like you and I (and many others) that simply want accuracte (not perfect, but reasonable) results - and to use examples like a signed scoresheet to teach our kids how to better look for (and stand up for) a question to the table ref at future matches.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Reviewing scoresheets

        Also curious, was the BallGame the item your kid was most curious about seeing? I think there may have been some odd interpretations of glitch or items around Updates 21/22.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Reviewing scoresheets

          Whenever a team has asked, I've had the scorekeepers re-score a sheet. Almost always the score comes out the same. The scoring program has been checked and double-checked, so the only cause of error would have been incorrect entry, or the teams not knowing what missions they had signed off on having completed. And in one case, a team not knowing the score for a mission (which I don't memorize either, we use computers for reason!) But the MC was nearby and as he was also a team mentor, he explained to the team what part of the score they had misunderstood.

          While acting as a ref at the table, I will always score the sheet with in the presence of the team. "OK, you got the dog. Both blue quilts, both orange quilts. Garden, no. Etc." So when we're done, they know exactly what they are signing. And if I goof up, they can catch me at it as I'm marking it. I thank them, and note that's why I have a big eraser.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Reviewing scoresheets

            We assume that the scoresheet was marked wrong and not noticed, but we will never know for sure what was missed. A few years ago, in Climate Connections, the scoresheet was marked "No" for removing the ice core, and "Yes" for having the ice core in base. The kids failed to notice the error, and signed it. Of course, it could not possibly be in base unless it was removed from the glacier, but the scoresheet is final. The kids accepted the error, and I use it as a teaching point each year.

            The referees were nice when checking the scoresheet, but just didn't let the kids see it. The kids asked me why, and I didn't have an answer for them.

            Linda

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Reviewing scoresheets

              Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
              Also curious, was the BallGame the item your kid was most curious about seeing? I think there may have been some odd interpretations of glitch or items around Updates 21/22.
              I agree. Our team ran into a problem with the ball game for two of the matches. For one match, when the robot activated the lever, the yellow ball came out and then one of our balls fell off the rack. Table ref initially was only to score the team for 5 balls since 2 balls fell. But the second ball was clearly a glitch. The team asked for the head ref and he agreed with the team and credit was given for 6 balls. In another match, the opposing table resetter had reset the table before ours had finished going over the scoring. The ball game had been reset. The table ref was scoring the team as if it wasn't played at all. Kids protested and said they dropped the yellow ball. Table ref asked the other if that side played the ball game. He said no, which is correct, the opposing team didn't attempt the ball mission, and table ref proceeded to not score the mission. Kids were flustered and didn't challenge it further. That difference in scoring would have solidly put them in the bracket instead of being out by just 5 points and they were really disappointed. But it is an experience that they will learn from.
              Susan
              RoboRangers #11662
              Katy, TX
              www.theroborangers.com
              https://www.facebook.com/pages/FLL-R...47858228568639

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Reviewing scoresheets

                Originally posted by Linda Zoe View Post
                We had a great time at the state tournament Saturday, and the team did well. However, one incident was a little unsettling for the team. On their last round, they did more missions with fewer robot retrievals than on the previous two rounds, and were therefore expecting a higher score. When the score was posted, it was lower than the other two rounds. The kids went through the proper appeal process, asking for the scoresheet to be reviewed and reentered in case there was a data entry error. The judges did this, and told the kids that the score was still the same. The judges would not let the team see the scoresheet. The boy who signed the scoresheet wanted to know if he had missed a referee error, and if so, what did he miss. He's very much a perfectionist and wants to learn from his mistakes. Is there a reason he was not allowed to look at the scoresheet again? He knew that once it is signed, it's official, and he would not have argued about any scoring errors on the sheet. If the score had been what the team expected, they would have been in third place rather than tenth in the rankings, so it was quite a disappointment to them.

                Linda
                I don't know what the policy is for the official sheets. The procedure at the Oregon championships was that the team is provided their own copy of the blank scoresheet for each round. At the conclusion of the round, the ref goes over the scoring with the team as he marks his official sheet, and the team enters the scores on their own duplicate sheet. The team signs the official sheet, and leaves with their own record.

                In the chaos of the middle of the competition floor, especially at the end of a long day, it's very easy to make mistakes marking the sheet. Usually the errors are in forgetting to mark any status for a mission. The tabulators are very good at sending the sheet back to the ref for clarification, and having the teams marking their own sheet helped to prevent errors as well.

                We were also very careful about discussing the ball game status with the ref team for the other table before marking the sheet, and before either side was reset. With four refs watching each match, at least one of them always had a clear ruling on what happened.

                The ball game wasn't fun from the ref's standpoint.
                FIRST Tech Challenge Judge: 2010, Referee: 2017
                FIRST LEGO League Mentor, Instructor, and/or Referee/Head Referee since 2011
                FIRST Robotics Competition judge (Chairman's Award): 2014
                Dean says I'm an "Oompa Loompa of Science"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Reviewing scoresheets

                  I printed out a bunch of the official score sheets before the tournament and had the girls score all their practice runs. Each kid took turns being the ref and the robot operator reviewing the score sheet. The kid refs often made unintentional mistakes offering opportunity the others to catch the mistake.

                  This helped the kids get used to the form and understanding that if the score sheet is wrong they won't get the points they deserved.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Reviewing scoresheets

                    Here are some of the factors that may influence my behavior as Head Referee when I am checking a scoresheet for a team:

                    - how many folks are waiting to talk to me
                    - how long I've been away from observing action on the tables (and how far away the scorekeeper's area is from the tables)
                    - how disruptive it is to the scorekeeper's filing system to keep a sheet out for an extended period

                    A team that can ask a specific question: "was the fruit bowl marked as being centered on the hall table or was the dog marked as only eating half of the food?" will get a quicker and more consistent response than "could we spend 60-90 seconds reviewing each of the entries and trying to remember whether they were marked correctly?"

                    On the other hand, I also recommend to my tournament directors that we return all the scoresheets to the teams at the end of the day. It's not like we want to keep them, and the team should already be aware of the contents....
                    Steve Scherr
                    FLL Referee and Judge
                    VA-DC and Ohio

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jeffd View Post
                      Re: Reviewing scoresheets

                      I printed out a bunch of the official score sheets before the tournament and had the girls score all their practice runs. Each kid took turns being the ref and the robot operator reviewing the score sheet. The kid refs often made unintentional mistakes offering opportunity the others to catch the mistake.

                      This helped the kids get used to the form and understanding that if the score sheet is wrong they won't get the points they deserved.
                      This is a test post with a quote

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X