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M04 - Crater Crossing

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  • #91
    Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
    Nah, don't worry about a ball dropped or not, those are just examples and not an exhaustive list of possible rule applications. Yes the gate change is weird and I think unneeded - but I suspect U6 was to throw in the towel and make this a simple as possible. I mean at some point, why not just start every team with 20 pts, and sure the original "intent" has been lost for some time.

    I guess bottom line, I feel better for refs (I think easy to award points for just about anything), but I feel bad for teams - esp those that developed good solutions, or missed the challenge of developing a solution to a good problem.
    In the end, it would have been simpler if the mission said to either drive the Robot or an independent vehicle over the Craters and across the Gate. Flattening the gate is then just a byproduct of accomplishing the mission.

    All that leaves out from what is currently allowed is thrown objects, but that's not really a good idea anyway at an event where no one is required to wear safety glasses.
    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by dna1990 View Post

      I see Updates as superseding Challenge text, and later updates supersede earlier updates.
      Re: superceding - but there's no rule that says it is so.
      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
        All this being said, the original mission should have made better reference to "transport" anyway, since that is a more defined concept each year. The whole agent craft and crossing equipment terminology is what led to most debates early on, trying to define what that might entail and more importantly at times - what is might exclude.

        Even in U6, the term "connected" pops up. Why not combined or some similar stance to how R11 is defined.

        We have said it before, but consistent word choice is important.
        Maybe what U06 and U08 together are meant to suggest is this:
        • If the Robot is Transporting the "crossing equipment", then the position of the Robot doesn't matter.
        • If the crossing equipment is the Robot itself, then the entire Robot has to cross between the towers. This covers the "equipment" being "CONNECTED" to the Robot, and therefore is part of the Robot per D04 (taking "connected" to mean "not intended to separate from it except by hand").
        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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        • #94

          One of the things that frustrated me about U08 was the use of a "ball" as the example of CROSSING EQUIPMENT. I was initially worried that team might get the idea to use the M14 meteoroid MISSION MODELs.

          At previous events, we told teams that they couldn't score for the Crater Crossing, if they tossed a MISSION MODEL over the crater, because the mission text specifically referenced crossing EQUIPMENT and D03 defines EQUIPMENT as "everything you bring to a Match for Mission-related activity."

          It appears that U08 finally gives a specific definition to the CROSSING EQUIPMENT phrase as simply "whatever crosses completely east to completely west for points." I'm thinking new definition now allows teams to use loose MISSION MODELs or EQUIPMENT as their CROSSING EQUIPMENT.

          I agree with the others that said that U08 also allows the gate to now be flattened before or after the crossing.

          Jeff
          Jeff Bartig
          Wisconsin Region FLL Head Ref

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          • #95
            Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
            Nah, don't worry about a ball dropped or not, those are just examples and not an exhaustive list of possible rule applications. Yes the gate change is weird and I think unneeded - but I suspect U8 was to throw in the towel and make this a simple as possible. I mean at some point, why not just start every team with 20 pts, and sure the original "intent" has been lost for some time.
            This seems to be along the same lines as "just be quiet & let the suspect keep talking; she'll eventually say something incriminating. I thought U06 had way too many words & was too explicit; apparently I was wrong. U08 is far worse. This has totally watered down the mission, and many teams that had even mildly clever solutions are going to look at this and say "why did we bother?" This seems to me to be going against the spirit of "If not mentioned, it doesn't matter" -- it's telling the teams exactly how to solve the mission. And I totally don't understand the "flatten the gate any time" thing; that's a massive change.

            This mission could have been so interesting had the rules been written clearly from day 1. Instead we've had to wait 3 months for updates that now change (what I thought) was the mission. I can understand not wanting to have too many updates, but now we've had 50% of the Robot Game updates (with about 67% of the words) within 8 days. This isn't helping.

            I will restrain myself from expounding, but will mention that once again we're having to deal with the word "Transporting", which didn't need a rules definition in the first place & has now been causing problems for 3 seasons.

            Trying to be positive, I will say that for the most part I like this year's game. There are some decent missions for both rookies & experienced teams.

            Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post

            Re: superceding - but there's no rule that says it is so.
            I agree; there's nothing in the rules that say what to do when an update contradicts an earlier update. However, I think it's reasonable to treat later updates as having a higher precedence than an earlier update. I do think updates supersede the rules, though.
            Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
            KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Jeff Bartig View Post
              I'm thinking new definition now allows teams to use loose MISSION MODELs or EQUIPMENT as their CROSSING EQUIPMENT.
              Jeff
              Before U08: Mission models (like the Metoroid) can't be used, because they're not "equipment", because the team doesn't bring them to the match - they're already there as part of the field setup. That's what I'd been saying for a couple of months now.

              After U08: But I see now how the word "equipment" is missing.

              Sheesh. Bring on another dose of Benefit of the Doubt.
              Last edited by Tom Mosher; 11-16-2018, 02:31 AM.
              FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post

                And I totally don't understand the "flatten the gate any time" thing; that's a massive change.

                This mission could have been so interesting had the rules been written clearly from day 1. Instead we've had to wait 3 months for updates that now change (what I thought) was the mission. I can understand not wanting to have too many updates, but now we've had 50% of the Robot Game updates (with about 67% of the words) within 8 days. This isn't helping.
                Indeed.
                FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                • #98
                  U08's following sentence "Crossing Equipment is the only Equipment that needs to cross." seems to still require that Crossing Equipment be Equipment... as in, not a Mission Model (per the non-update rule definitions).

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by happy5 View Post
                    U08's following sentence "Crossing Equipment is the only Equipment that needs to cross." seems to still require that Crossing Equipment be Equipment... as in, not a Mission Model (per the non-update rule definitions).
                    I agree. Mission models are not Equipment.
                    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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