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M14 - Meteoroid Deflection

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  • M14 - Meteoroid Deflection

    Mission Discussion Thread

  • #2
    The new phrase of "independent" as described in the fine print of M01...says only Your Equipment. Does that leave open the use of Mission Models to act as guides/helpers?

    If so , I think it is a nice hole that teams could develop some clever uses for Mission Models they may not otherwise utilize. But if that is the intention, I doubt most refs will see it that way and assume independent means all other "things".

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
      Does that leave open the use of Mission Models to act as guides/helpers?
      I think "Yes", since the mission models are not the team's equipment.

      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

      Comment


      • #4
        I just noticed that the exception "you may remove the ring from the field" applies only to the ring, not the meteor ball. I originally (and incorrectly) read that as the loose meteor ball could be removed if it didn't go into the Meteoroid Catcher.

        Since the ring is located far from the South wall, the Refs may want to ask the team if they want the ring removed.
        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

        Comment


        • #5
          I really don't understand why we have these clauses. It is just another obstacle, like everything else on the field, why make an exception to a very important rule of not touching the field outside of base for this? Kids can't always reach it, lunge for it, mess up other things, etc. It just seems like terrible rule-making, with so little to gain.
          MA Head Referee since 1999
          Sharon Youth Robotics Association

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JackGregory View Post
            I really don't understand why we have these clauses. It is just another obstacle, like everything else on the field, why make an exception to a very important rule of not touching the field outside of base for this? Kids can't always reach it, lunge for it, mess up other things, etc. It just seems like terrible rule-making, with so little to gain.
            Maybe it's because the thickness of the ring is pretty small considering most of the models that teams have to design for. It could be hard for teams to mitigate driving over it, or a constraint on the robot design, while trying to access the black waypoint line near M09 and M10.

            The new phrase of "independent" as described in the fine print of M01
            <Pet Peeve Warning>
            Regarding where "Independent" is defined within M01, but with text that makes it apply to all Missions. The definition of "Independent" should have been made in an intro to the missions (along with where the "Scoring Requirements Signals" were placed). FIRST has a habit of complicating the readability of the rules, by burying rules for one topic within other topics. Setting them out separately would be more handy. For an example see "D07 Base". It defines not only Base, but the concepts of "Completely In" and "Scoring areas include the lines around them". That's a 3-for-1 deal. Those who are new to the game are not going to look for the definition of "Completely In" with the "Base" definition.
            FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

            Comment


            • #7
              This is a mission that we are absolutely going to have to clarify something that was said in the official FIRST launch video.

              I fully understand that videos are not considered rules, and have no weight in the information superiority hierarchy (GP5 #4 bullet point 1)
              However, some coaches and teams will not understand that until we are in a coaches meeting with them, telling the that what they think they are allowed to do, they are not.

              at 39:05 in in the FIRST official mission model reveal - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIP5QwA7s2Y , they talk about a "ring reset and ball reset, and try again" also at 39:40 , the person walking through the missions with the co host and kids, specifically states that they they allow the referees to reset the ball by hand.

              Unless i am overlooking something in the rules that actually allows this, the only exception that I see is the removing of the ring , M14 technically speaking -after bullet point 5 "If ever the Ring-Set Meteoroid is off its Ring, you may remove the Ring from the Field by hand (this is a special exception to the Rules).

              otherwise we should reference .... R10 bullet point 3 , "nothing is ever re-positioned so you can "try again"

              thoughts?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by J Church View Post
                This is a mission that we are absolutely going to have to clarify something that was said in the official FIRST launch video.

                I fully understand that videos are not considered rules, and have no weight in the information superiority hierarchy (GP5 #4 bullet point 1)
                However, some coaches and teams will not understand that until we are in a coaches meeting with them, telling the that what they think they are allowed to do, they are not.

                at 39:05 in in the FIRST official mission model reveal - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIP5QwA7s2Y , they talk about a "ring reset and ball reset, and try again" also at 39:40 , the person walking through the missions with the co host and kids, specifically states that they they allow the referees to reset the ball by hand.

                Unless i am overlooking something in the rules that actually allows this, the only exception that I see is the removing of the ring , M14 technically speaking -after bullet point 5 "If ever the Ring-Set Meteoroid is off its Ring, you may remove the Ring from the Field by hand (this is a special exception to the Rules).

                otherwise we should reference .... R10 bullet point 3 , "nothing is ever re-positioned so you can "try again"

                thoughts?
                FIRST is very unlikely to issue an update for a rule that is already clear - the videos are not the rules, and the rules say teams cannot touch anything outside of Base. And there is no additional (higher priority) rule in the Mission itself. The only thing that can be touched by hand is to remove the Ring.

                The referees will happily explain this to the teams during the matches, if there is any uncertainty.

                FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by J Church View Post
                  This is a mission that we are absolutely going to have to clarify something that was said in the official FIRST launch video.

                  I fully understand that videos are not considered rules, and have no weight in the information superiority hierarchy (GP5 #4 bullet point 1)
                  However, some coaches and teams will not understand that until we are in a coaches meeting with them, telling the that what they think they are allowed to do, they are not.
                  .....

                  Unless i am overlooking something in the rules that actually allows this, the only exception that I see is the removing of the ring , M14 technically speaking -after bullet point 5 "If ever the Ring-Set Meteoroid is off its Ring, you may remove the Ring from the Field by hand (this is a special exception to the Rules).

                  otherwise we should reference .... R10 bullet point 3 , "nothing is ever re-positioned so you can "try again"
                  Let me start by explaining why anything said in an official video has no weight. FIRST goes to great lengths to avoid contradictions and ambiguities in the missions. In an unscripted Q&A on the missions, it's impossible to do the same quality control. Mike Grenier (the person walking through the missions) uses the word "reset".

                  From your post I see that, in this context, you understand that word differently from me. He is saying (at 38:55) that you can reload the mission with the 2nd ball that starts off in base. He then goes on to talk loosely about "ring reset, ball reset". He's not talking about resetting the field here but about having 2 chances to do this mission, and that both can score.

                  Having said that, you do have a point in that under the Technically Speaking heading, the only indication that you can use two meteoroids, is the use of the word Meteoroids instead of Meteoroid. It's not as clear as it might be.

                  I'll take this up and get back to you.

                  While I'm writing, let me say that I know some of you think FIRST has not been as successful as they could have been in avoiding ambiguities. The problem is that the more details one goes into to minimize ambiguity, the greater the chances of one of the thousands of kids finding a contradiction. Scott Evans tries to find the right balance. Mostly he succeeds, sometimes he doesn't. This forum is one of the places to sort those out.

                  Alan
                  Head Referee Israel
                  Global Head Referee


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by alanggreen View Post

                    Let me start by explaining why anything said in an official video has no weight. FIRST goes to great lengths to avoid contradictions and ambiguities in the missions. In an unscripted Q&A on the missions, it's impossible to do the same quality control. Mike Grenier (the person walking through the missions) uses the word "reset".

                    From your post I see that, in this context, you understand that word differently from me. He is saying (at 38:55) that you can reload the mission with the 2nd ball that starts off in base. He then goes on to talk loosely about "ring reset, ball reset". He's not talking about resetting the field here but about having 2 chances to do this mission, and that both can score.

                    Having said that, you do have a point in that under the Technically Speaking heading, the only indication that you can use two meteoroids, is the use of the word Meteoroids instead of Meteoroid. It's not as clear as it might be.

                    I'll take this up and get back to you.

                    While I'm writing, let me say that I know some of you think FIRST has not been as successful as they could have been in avoiding ambiguities. The problem is that the more details one goes into to minimize ambiguity, the greater the chances of one of the thousands of kids finding a contradiction. Scott Evans tries to find the right balance. Mostly he succeeds, sometimes he doesn't. This forum is one of the places to sort those out.

                    Alan
                    Head Referee Israel
                    Global Head Referee

                    Just a couple points of clarification. As i stated, I DO understand that neither the field nor the ball will be reset, and as I stated, i understand that the video is not a rule, clearly. just as these forums are not rules. I am just tossing out questions that i anticipate at a coaches meeting.

                    at 40:23, he does specifically talk about it being "written into the rules, that the ref can rest this by hand" which obviously, i don't see.

                    I also understand and appreciate that FIRST DOES work hard to be clear on the rules, I certainly couldn't write rules that would have no ambiguities, so I wouldn't criticize anyone else for this either.

                    I think maybe this issue, (which i understand is not a rule clarification, since the video is not a rule) can be taken up on a local level via newsletter if that is something that is done in specific areas, such as ours.

                    I would just like to see the teams being informed of the known error in the FIRST video, so that they don't misinterpret it as an official rule and spend time programing a mission that would not be valid at tournament. but perhaps, this is something that is also part of the growth experience that coaches and teams should know about understanding of the official rules.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yes, Mike clearly says in the referenced video, the ref can place the meteoroid from base and "reset it to the ring". And no, I don't see that in the rules at all.

                      There were a lot more options in the first drafts of this mission, and I suspect Mike may have reverted to explaining some of those options. The text wins.

                      And in this case, to the benefit of the team. It means that for your meteoroid from base - the team may load it by hand in base, and not have to worry about grabbing it from the field and off its ring. The ability to remove "just the ring" is left so that it is removable and again to the benefit of not getting the way of future travels.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There is an update in the works regarding this issue.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by alanggreen View Post
                          There is an update in the works regarding this issue.
                          Note: The update U03 was published (dated 24 Sept 2018).

                          It confirms that videos are not rules, and that nothing outside of Base is reset by hand during a match.
                          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I'd like to raise an issue that is being discussed on the public forum.

                            My team wants to know if they can shoot from base. They think that meets the definition of being west of the Free Line...
                            There is no rule against the robot throwing either of the Meteoroids from Base. That's not what I'm asking about.

                            I see two possible issues regarding where the Free-Line is shown on the mat, and what these phrases in the scoring rules mean:

                            Point A: From the 1st bullet: "Send Meteoroids * over the Free-Line..."

                            Point B: From the 2nd bullet: "... * clearly and completely west of the Free-Line".

                            The asterisks mean they are required methods, and the green means it is a scoring requirement.

                            Point A) A referee may infer that a Meteoroid that doesn't physically pass over the line as printed on the mat might not be scored. The southern extent of the Free-Line is at the Habitation Module. Looking at the top-down image of the mat, it appears that a direct path from Base to the Meteoroid Catcher is only possible from the northern-most portion of Base, and that the path would pass directly over the Habitation Hub.

                            Please see this image. I've outlined the Free-Line in lime green, a Meteoroid throw that does not pass over the Free-Line in Red, and one that does in dark green.
                            Would any of these throws be potentially allowed?

                            M14.JPG


                            Point B) Regarding "completely west of the Free-Line", can we assume that "west" is determined by artificially extending the Free-Line until it intersects both the North and South walls of the field? Or does a meteoroid launch have to both pass over the line as printed on the mat AND start from west of the line?

                            FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              For purposes of sending "over the Free-Line," I consider the Free-Line to be exactly the line printed on the mat.

                              All of Base is clearly and completely West of the Free-Line. For that, I think that we have to take the westernmost extent of the printed line, and any hit/release location completely West of that would be fine.

                              In Tom's diagram, I accept the track of the green arrow as valid, but not the red arrow.

                              And, as we all know, R10 says that it's the Robot that would have to send the Meteoroid out of Base, and not the Technicians' hands.

                              Steve

                              P.S. Has anyone found a compass rose printed on this mat? I looked this weekend and didn't see one. The Field Ready picture in the Field Setup guide is pretty explicit in indicating directions, of course.
                              Steve Scherr
                              Referee and Judge, Virginia-DC, Maryland, and Ohio
                              FLL Global Head Referee

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