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  • R28 - Cargo Confiscation

    Just to highlight this ruleset to seasons past...when an interruption occurs and the bot has cargo, you look to where that cargo originated. In recent years this rule fluctuated abit, but when allowed - looked at where the cargo originated from "on that most recent launch/outing". This season doesn't burden the ref to remember if a piece was with the robot at "that" launch, just "any" launch.

    Robot legally delivers a Building Unit to somewhere on the Field. Returns to Home, goes thru one or more additional legal launches. Eventually returns to that same Building Unit and begins to transport it again, maybe while adding additional units or to further shove the unit into a scoring circle. Something happens, team grabs the bot.

    A old-habit ref might want to confiscate that original Building Unit, but I am reading R28 that the team keeps it. Because at some point in the match, it made its way onto the field via the Launch Area. Yea?


    Now this brought up a new question, that I am not sure I applied well in the past. Robot pushes a mission model into a scoring position. Robot is still in contact/control (is transporting) the mission model. Bot gets stuck, team grabs robot. The team does not LOSE the mission model via a ref confiscation, but does that mission model then HAVE to COME BACK to Home and begin anew? In other words, R28 says "Keep It", it doesn't say "Team Option to leave in place or carry back with bot". Thoughts?

    I think in general, we have never "unscored" a mission on such a case, especially if a simple "push" and the mission model could easily remain on its own in scoring position as the robot is calmly picked up and taken back to home (base). But again, trying to discuss now so that a new-ish team or ref all apply R28 consistently. And if "Keep It", means you must "keep it with bot" and carry back to home - then lets have everyone aware of that.

  • #2
    Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
    Just to highlight this ruleset to seasons past...when an interruption occurs and the bot has cargo, you look to where that cargo originated. In recent years this rule fluctuated abit, but when allowed - looked at where the cargo originated from "on that most recent launch/outing". This season doesn't burden the ref to remember if a piece was with the robot at "that" launch, just "any" launch.

    Robot legally delivers a Building Unit to somewhere on the Field. Returns to Home, goes thru one or more additional legal launches. Eventually returns to that same Building Unit and begins to transport it again, maybe while adding additional units or to further shove the unit into a scoring circle. Something happens, team grabs the bot.

    A old-habit ref might want to confiscate that original Building Unit, but I am reading R28 that the team keeps it. Because at some point in the match, it made its way onto the field via the Launch Area. Yea?

    I think maybe you're reading too much into the rule text. Once the robot loses contact with an object, it's no longer cargo, it's stranded cargo. If the robot then starts transporting it again, it again becomes cargo, but it was acquired somewhere outside of Launch Area. So I think maybe "Keep it" doesn't apply.
    Last edited by Tom Mosher; 08-06-2019, 12:01 PM. Reason: Edited Home to Launch Area.
    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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    • #3
      Robot pushes a mission model into a scoring position. Robot is still in contact/control (is transporting) the mission model. Bot gets stuck, team grabs robot. The team does not LOSE the mission model via a ref confiscation, but does that mission model then HAVE to COME BACK to Home and begin anew?
      If the model was Cargo that was acquired in the Launch Area, the team gets it back ("Keep it").
      If the model was Cargo that was acquired completely outside of the Launch Area, and it was completely outside Home when the interruption happened, the model is removed from the game ("Referee takes it").
      Last edited by Tom Mosher; 08-06-2019, 12:05 PM. Reason: Added more phrases and commas...
      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post

        I think maybe you're reading too much into the rule text. Once the robot loses contact with an object, it's no longer cargo, it's stranded cargo. If the robot then starts transporting it again, it again becomes cargo, but it was acquired somewhere outside of Launch Area. So I think maybe "Keep it" doesn't apply.
        For sure I am reading down into it, but not for my purposes of the game or ruling. I am pushing it so that if a team reads it that way and poses a question at game time, I have a prepared stance on how to react/rule. Or in some ways asking here if it is even likely that a team would read it that way, seeking confirmation of its possibility.

        You make a good point, at the moment of interruption in my example - the model has been "re"acquired, and that latest acquisition is NOT in Launch. So even another wrinkle in a place when I think the designers meant to SIMPLIFY things like cargo. I have no dog in the outcome, I am perfectly fine to call it a keep or confiscate. (I am actually fine to change my mind at the time I see such an occurrence..grin). Why I wring it out here, is to try to ensure that is we think there is 2+ likely ways to "read" the given text, then it seems a conclusion that refs across the land will apply it in 2+ ways.

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        • #5
          Just an observation - I think maybe the days of trying to get airtight rules are gone (not that we were ever very successful at that).

          The game philosophy seems to have evolved into more of an educational activity with less emphasis on the competition rules.
          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post

            If the model was Cargo that was acquired in the Launch Area, the team gets it back ("Keep it").
            If the model was Cargo that was acquired completely outside of the Launch Area, and it was completely outside Home when the interruption happened, the model is removed from the game ("Referee takes it").
            Just restating to ensure I got my idea across. The example certainly falls into the "keep it" outcome, agree. My question is about the "requirement" to "keep it" and take back to home/launch with the bot. In other words, can cargo (still in contact/control) of the bot - be legally "left behind"? If that cargo item was in scoring position at the moment of interruption, and the bot is pulled "away" and cleanly separated from that mission model, can (should) the model be allowed to stay in scoring position?

            OR. Or since it meets the "keep it" outcome, it MUST be returned to launch for another try?

            And before you say, yes - it must be returned because that is what "keep it" means...in the reality throws of a live match - isn't it just as possible that some minuscule airgap has formed between the bot and mission model (thus making is stranded cargo, cargo that just also happens to be in scoring condition). So it gives you credence to let the team take the bot back and not descore something? Unless it was so obvious not the case,I think that is the reasoning I would use to justly allow the mission model to stay in place.

            This is all theory about a simple/clean bulldozer-looking delivery and everything is calm and on the mat. Clearly for crazy hanging/bucket/claw contraptions holding/placing mission models into irregular scoring positions - the piece is most likely going to still be "unclear" as to a steady state in scoring position, and much more likely still in contact/control of the bot (cargo) and the "whole thing" goes back to launch.

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            • #7
              My question is about the "requirement" to "keep it" and take back to home/launch with the bot. In other words, can cargo (still in contact/control) of the bot - be legally "left behind"?
              I understand the question now. It is a good one.

              Based on knowledge of previous robot games, I'd say the cargo should be moved back to Home. But this year's rules don't really say that. I think it is implied by "keep it" (as contrasted with the referee taking the object away from the team), but it's not unambiguously stated.

              Minuscule air gaps have always been a problem in ruling about "transporting". Rule 16 still exists (Benefit of the Doubt). I'd say that "is a pushed object still being transported after the robot has stopped moving?" is a good case for a "very tough call".
              Last edited by Tom Mosher; 08-06-2019, 06:28 PM. Reason: Added the underlined phrase.
              FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
                Just an observation - I think maybe the days of trying to get airtight rules are gone (not that we were ever very successful at that).

                The game philosophy seems to have evolved into more of an educational activity with less emphasis on the competition rules.
                Agree, and I like that just as fine. My personal picking at these word details and edge cases - is mostly for prep and arriving at some predetermined stance. Mostly for the few amount of teams that a) are really into the rules for some reason and b) for teams that have been blindsided. To give good answers to either group should require more than just a feeling at the time and how cool their colored tshirts are. I also think most head refs know that having to answer later to pushy coaches and parents, etc - it is a smart move to have reasoning behind why you did what you did to "promote and inspire" a team or teams. Fact is when it gets down to tournament season, I am personally quite lenient, esp when a team can articulate any specific case (and not just whine and beg).

                I think this season we DO see a big improvement to ability of the ref-who-got-trained-that-morning to still learn and react appropriately the vast majority of cases. Some of these word challenges like above is to help ensure that "easy" mode is not lost and some given ref or team goes too far down one of the edge cases. If (the collective) we know where some of the rabbit holes exist - we become much more powerful to intercept that before it gets beyond the "accessible and inspiring' features this robot game offers to young people.

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