Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

"Except to Launch"

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • "Except to Launch"

    I'm struggling to define exactly what "except to Launch" allows in R22 and R23. I couldn't find a clear explanation in the rules, and I'm curious to hear how other referees are interpreting the exception.

    I believe it allows actions preparing the robot for the next launch (after the team has interrupted their robot). This would include team actions like moving mission models and equipment from Home into the Launch Area, changing attachments on the robot (while it is in the launch area), aligning the robot for launch, and launching the robot.

    If I include "preparing for launch" as part of the "except for Launch" definition, that seems to open the door for teams to extend alignment jigs out of the launch area and onto the mat as long as they remove the jig before they actually launch the robot. Am I missing something that prevents this? Or does "except to Launch" only allow teams to work in Home and the Launch Area during the match (R19 covers this before the match starts).


  • #2
    If I include "preparing for launch" as part of the "except for Launch" definition, that seems to open the door for teams to extend alignment jigs out of the launch area and onto the mat as long as they remove the jig before they actually launch the robot.
    Regarding this: I don't see any clear rules on this either.

    I original read the rules as meaning that "except to Launch" refers to teams being allowed to use both Home and the Launch Area to prepare for the next Launch - but nothing explicitly says they can't also use the rest of the Mat that is outside of the Launch Area up until the robot is Launched.


    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

    Comment


    • #3
      I have a team that has proposed building a secondary wall within Home that extends to the edge of the Mat to use to align the robot. I think this would be OK given the current rules about manipulating equipment in Home as long as no part of the wall extends onto the Mat. The team also would be allowed to back the robot up to this secondary wall, or even to place a jig that is completely in the Launch Area against this secondary wall during launch, then pick up the jig as a stranded object within the Launch Area after launch as long as it meets the conditions of RG09.

      Since the width of Home is not guaranteed, it could be difficult to locate the secondary wall exactly on the Mat's edge, except that under the current rules, since the secondary wall is completely in Home, it could be held down by hand exactly at the Mat's edge, even during launch. I point this out because I'm not sure this is what is intended.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by scottdickson View Post
        I have a team that has proposed building a secondary wall within Home that extends to the edge of the Mat to use to align the robot. I think this would be OK given the current rules about manipulating equipment in Home as long as no part of the wall extends onto the Mat. The team also would be allowed to back the robot up to this secondary wall, or even to place a jig that is completely in the Launch Area against this secondary wall during launch, then pick up the jig as a stranded object within the Launch Area after launch as long as it meets the conditions of RG09.

        Since the width of Home is not guaranteed, it could be difficult to locate the secondary wall exactly on the Mat's edge, except that under the current rules, since the secondary wall is completely in Home, it could be held down by hand exactly at the Mat's edge, even during launch. I point this out because I'm not sure this is what is intended.
        From today's robot game webinar, I think the preference from the Global Head Referees is that teams remove whatever jigs they are using before the robot is Launched, whether they be entirely in the Launch Area or if they span over into the Home area,

        I think the reasoning is that while the team is setting up for a launch, there is no rule against having equipment that extends out of Home and into the Launch Area. But after Launch, there can be no equipment that extends outside of Home, and anything left in the Launch Area must be left there until the next Interruption.

        ...pick up the jig as a stranded object within the Launch Area
        No, I don't think that's allowed, because a jig is never cargo (because the robot never "transported it"), and so the "stranded cargo" rule doesn't apply.
        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
          No, I don't think that's allowed, because a jig is never cargo (because the robot never "transported it"), and so the "stranded cargo" rule doesn't apply.
          I know this conflicts with one interpretation of RG09, but I'm just quoting what I got from the webinar today.

          It depends on what "Stranded" means in RG09, and why they capitalized the word if it isn't defined anywhere as a rule.
          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

          Comment


          • #6
            RG09 refers to "Things Stranded" and doesn't specifically mention Cargo. RG09 does state that the situation it covers would be an exception to Rule 29, which is about "Stranded Cargo". So I'm left with wondering whether the "Things" referred to in RG09 are meant to encompass more than just Cargo that has been transported by the robot. In the absence of official clarification, I would have to agree with teams who claim the more expansive meaning of "Things".

            I was listening to today's webinar and don't recall this situation being discussed, other than removal of a jig that extends out of Home into the Launch Area prior to launch, which I would agree with. There is legitimate question as to whether such a jig should even be allowed according to the rules, but the fact that there is legitimate question suggests that it is allowed.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by scottdickson View Post
              I have a team that has proposed building a secondary wall within Home that extends to the edge of the Mat to use to align the robot. I think this would be OK given the current rules about manipulating equipment in Home as long as no part of the wall extends onto the Mat. The team also would be allowed to back the robot up to this secondary wall, or even to place a jig that is completely in the Launch Area against this secondary wall during launch, then pick up the jig as a stranded object within the Launch Area after launch as long as it meets the conditions of RG09.
              I agree they could build some kind of wall that goes to the edge of Home, but I don't think they can use it to launch. Even assuming it's exactly on the boundary (which, of course, BotD would do), if the Robot is touching it during Launch then the Robot is "using" something that's not completely in the Launch Area. So that violates R21. I also agree with you about using the wall to orient a jig, as long as they pick up the jig before Launch.

              Originally posted by scottdickson View Post
              RG09 refers to "Things Stranded" and doesn't specifically mention Cargo. RG09 does state that the situation it covers would be an exception to Rule 29, which is about "Stranded Cargo". So I'm left with wondering whether the "Things" referred to in RG09 are meant to encompass more than just Cargo that has been transported by the robot. In the absence of official clarification, I would have to agree with teams who claim the more expansive meaning of "Things".
              I'm planning on going the other direction -- since R29 only defines Stranded in terms of Cargo, and Cargo is only defined in R11 in terms of being Transported, jigs can't be "Stranded" and therefore would have to be left in the Launch Area until Interruption. However, I'm planning on being pretty lenient if teams given anything close to your interpretation in their argument.
              Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
              KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not sure you appreciate that RG13 states "things completely in Home can be stored, handled, and shifted around any way you like, any time after inspection." As this is a Game Update, it takes precedence over Rules.

                R29 only defines Stranded Cargo, it doesn't define Stranded. Good luck with arguing that Stranded Things can only be Cargo. Also, if the robot moves the jig only a fraction of a millimeter, does it suddenly become Cargo? It would be pretty unusual for the robot to leave the jig without moving it at least slightly. It's easier to just allow any Thing left behind in the Launch Area to be a Stranded Thing in the Launch Area.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by scottdickson View Post
                  Also, if the robot moves the jig only a fraction of a millimeter, does it suddenly become Cargo? It would be pretty unusual for the robot to leave the jig without moving it at least slightly.
                  That would be applying the game rules with entirely too fine a microscope.

                  FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by scottdickson View Post
                    Also, if the robot moves the jig only a fraction of a millimeter, does it suddenly become Cargo? It would be pretty unusual for the robot to leave the jig without moving it at least slightly.
                    That would be applying the game rules with entirely too fine a microscope.
                    That's a fair observation of a part of my post taken out of context, but the microscope cuts both ways. I'd have to ask how many millimeters does the robot have to transport something before it becomes Cargo.

                    In any case, my main point was that RG09 refers to Stranded Things, not just Stranded Cargo. The main reason for RG09 is not stated, but I would surmise that it was added to allow a Technician to clear the Launch Area in order to have a clean space to prepare for the next launch.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by scottdickson View Post
                      I'm not sure you appreciate that RG13 states "things completely in Home can be stored, handled, and shifted around any way you like, any time after inspection." As this is a Game Update, it takes precedence over Rules.
                      Actually, I do appreciate that, but I don't understand how it applies to a robot being Launched touching something that's in Home. Or are you referring to some other part of my post?

                      Originally posted by scottdickson View Post
                      R29 only defines Stranded Cargo, it doesn't define Stranded. Good luck with arguing that Stranded Things can only be Cargo. Also, if the robot moves the jig only a fraction of a millimeter, does it suddenly become Cargo? It would be pretty unusual for the robot to leave the jig without moving it at least slightly. It's easier to just allow any Thing left behind in the Launch Area to be a Stranded Thing in the Launch Area.
                      I don't need good luck; I'm the head ref. What I do need is updates that are actually clear, so we don't have to wonder about this kind of thing. I'm seeing this all as an old-time "hidden freedom." I could easily be wrong, but I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me to change my interpretation.
                      Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                      KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Actually, I do appreciate that, but I don't understand how it applies to a robot being Launched touching something that's in Home. Or are you referring to some other part of my post?
                        Actually I'm referring to RG13. If I can arrange things in Home any way I want, I can put a wall made of Equipment up against the west border of the mat. The robot or jig can be up against that wall. The robot or jig is in the Launch Area and the wall is in Home. If you tell them the robot or jig can't touch the wall, now you're using a microscope to ensure there's space between them. I wouldn't bother mentioning this, except that a team asked if they could do something like this. I suppose you would tell them they can't, using your authority as head ref, but I can't figure out how this decision would be justified by the text of the applicable rules and game updates, so I would tell them it's OK. I agree that it would be better to have consistency.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by scottdickson View Post
                          Actually I'm referring to RG13. If I can arrange things in Home any way I want, I can put a wall made of Equipment up against the west border of the mat. The robot or jig can be up against that wall. The robot or jig is in the Launch Area and the wall is in Home. If you tell them the robot or jig can't touch the wall, now you're using a microscope to ensure there's space between them. I wouldn't bother mentioning this, except that a team asked if they could do something like this. I suppose you would tell them they can't, using your authority as head ref, but I can't figure out how this decision would be justified by the text of the applicable rules and game updates, so I would tell them it's OK. I agree that it would be better to have consistency.
                          I'd agree with you, Scott. I'd be OK with a team having an jig that was exactly the size of Home, with a few mm of BOD. Mainly because I can't see anything that says they can't.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by alanggreen View Post
                            I'd agree with you, Scott. I'd be OK with a team having an jig that was exactly the size of Home, with a few mm of BOD. Mainly because I can't see anything that says they can't.
                            Interesting. I'm basing my stance on the R21 requirement for everything the robot is going to use fits in the Launch Area. If it's touching something, I believe that means it's using it. I also was asked by a team about this, so I've thought about it. If the jig is completely in Home and the Robot isn't touching it, then of course it would be fine. And RG13 clearly allows for the Robot to back up & square against the jig, so that's no problem.

                            I don't see any need for a microscope. I wouldn't worry much about the jig being right on the line (or not); but it's usually pretty easy to see if the Robot is touching something or not. If I asked the kids if they touch the jig in this case, and they say "no, we just get close & back up" then I'm not going to worry about it at all. Unless I don't see the Robot back up.
                            Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                            KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              No need for a microscope. You can use a piece of paper to slip between the robot and the alignment structure in Home, just to be sure. Incidentally, the robot doesn't have to be touching something to be using it for launch (think about manually arranging items in the Launch Area that the robot will transport after launch), so touching or not touching doesn't really make any difference. If there is any conflict between R21 and RG13 in this particular very narrow case (I'm not sure there is), RG13, being an update, takes precedence. Hopefully we won't see this very often.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X