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World Festival Scores

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  • World Festival Scores

    Here are the top 24 scores at the world festival, and congrats to the China Team with a fantastic score of 323 points.
    Attached Files
    Tony A.
    Los Angeles FLL Region OP
    www.la-fll.org
    https://www.facebook.com/LosAngelesFLL/

  • #2
    Re: World Festival Scores

    Thanks for posting! The top 24 all breaking 200 points is pretty impressive. Now I can share that 323 with my kids and give them the challenge to try to break it this summer!
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    • #3
      Re: World Festival Scores

      Thats impressive. We are participating in the FLL Open Championship in Florida this week, and my girls just had two perfect runs on friday for a high score of 273 pts. That would put us in 9th place. this is without bringing the container back to the dock or placing anything into the sink. Knowing how they are I can see them on Monday and tuesday trying to put something back on the sink to get an extra 18 pts.

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      • #4
        Re: World Festival Scores

        Originally posted by jsanchez View Post
        Thats impressive. We are participating in the FLL Open Championship in Florida this week, and my girls just had two perfect runs on friday for a high score of 273 pts. That would put us in 9th place. this is without bringing the container back to the dock or placing anything into the sink. Knowing how they are I can see them on Monday and tuesday trying to put something back on the sink to get an extra 18 pts.
        There is always time to improve. Best wishes for the up coming competition.
        Tony A.
        Los Angeles FLL Region OP
        www.la-fll.org
        https://www.facebook.com/LosAngelesFLL/

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        • #5
          Re: World Festival Scores

          Originally posted by LOLComets View Post
          There is always time to improve. Best wishes for the up coming competition.
          You are absolutely correct. I will leave too see what the ideas the kids come up with for those extra point, right now they get the 273 with just 4-5 sec. remaining.

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          • #6
            Re: World Festival Scores

            At the World Festival closing, in a hint about the Senior Solutions robot game, Scott Evans suggested that teams might want to have their robots practice climbing stairs.
            Steve Scherr
            Referee and Judge, Virginia-DC, Maryland, and Ohio
            FLL Global Head Referee

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            • #7
              Re: World Festival Scores

              Originally posted by scherrsj View Post
              At the World Festival closing, in a hint about the Senior Solutions robot game, Scott Evans suggested that teams might want to have their robots practice climbing stairs.
              Video of Scott's talk from the World Festival

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4dAj...ture=endscreen

              In case you don't want to watch the video, some additional tidbits of information about next years game:
              1. It will have almost no small objects (not like the large numbers of bacteria and viruses)
              2. A perfect score will be impossible again
              3. It will be 10% easier than this year
              Last edited by timdavid; 04-30-2012, 07:37 PM.

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              • #8
                Re: World Festival Scores

                The list of awards from the World Festival is available.

                Congratulations to all the teams, but especially the top 3 teams for the Champion's Award:
                1. Falcons - Japan
                2. Blue Gear Ticks - USA
                3. NXTremers - India

                The Falcons and Blue Gear Ticks also finished second and third respectively in Robot Performance.
                Last edited by timdavid; 05-06-2012, 06:43 PM.

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                • #9
                  Re: World Festival Scores

                  Originally posted by timdavid View Post
                  Video of Scott's talk from the World Festival

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4dAj...ture=endscreen

                  In case you don't want to watch the video, some additional tidbits of information about next years game:
                  1. It will have almost no small objects (not like the large numbers of bacteria and viruses)
                  2. A perfect score will be impossible again
                  3. It will be 10% easier than this year
                  It is difficult to articulate how disappointed I am that Scott thinks this years challenge was a success. I found nothing wrong with the missions. There was a nice variety and range of difficulty. I did not find the overall level of difficulty to be too high. Many teams were scoring in the 200-250 range. If you remove the busy work mission and adjust the max score from 308 to 400 that translates to 260-325. Nobody would be complaining about those scores.

                  What I did find so very disappointing was how the message that perfection is unobtainable and how that changes the focus of the game from solving problems to defeating other teams. Two things I like so much about FLL as opposed to FIRST are autonomy and the lack of direct competition. With my girls it was fairly easy to have them think of the table as the opposition. Early on they set a goal that they would have a perfect table run. It took four years and many lessons learned to eventually achieve that goal. What is the goal for my new team? "Sorry kids, you cannot get a perfect score. All you can strive for is getting a better score than any other team. Yes, I know that makes the robot game just like every other game. Yes, I realize that makes it more difficult for you to want to share your knowledge with the FLL community, but you are 9 years old and should be grown up about that sort of thing."

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                  • #10
                    Re: World Festival Scores

                    Originally posted by Dean Hystad View Post
                    ...What I did find so very disappointing was how the message that perfection is unobtainable and how that changes the focus of the game from solving problems to defeating other teams...
                    I initially didn't like the change from a reachable 400 score to an unobtainable 452, but as the year progressed, I became more accepting of it and even started to like elements of the approach.

                    I always thought the ideal mission board would be if a perfect score was possible, but extremely hard to achieve. Only a handful of teams in the entire world should be able to achieve a perfect score during the season. Unfortunately, I think it is extremely hard to design a game that achieves a perfectly calibrated level of difficulty. The result is that some years the game was “too easy”, and lots of teams achieved perfect scores. That’s not always a bad thing, but it does make it hard to differentiate teams at high levels of competition. When the determining factor for awarding the robot performance award at the World Festivals is how many times a team achieved a perfect score in their 3 runs, or how quickly they did it, the game was probably too easy.

                    While I think Scott took it a little too far this year in making sure no one could achieve a perfect score, his overall intent didn’t really bother me. I did overhear one child lamenting “those darn bacteria” to an official at the state tournament, but in general I don’t think it really bothered the kids on my team either. These are kids that are very intent on the robot game, but have never achieved a perfect 400 in previous years. For most of our season, getting close to 200 points was the goal. After that, it was just getting a score that would be competitive with the top teams in our area. For them, a “perfect” table run has meant that all the missions they ran worked, not that they achieved the maximum possible number of points. I celebrate those "perfect" runs with the kids, but I try not to make a perfect run the defining criteria for the success of the team. I don't want the team to think it is a failure if one piece of food falls off the table, or if one fish doesn't cooperate.

                    When I had asked the kids on our team what they disliked about this year’s game, their main complaint was that scoring was too difficult to do in their heads. They didn’t like the point totals of things worth 2,3,4, or 7 points. They thought having things worth multiples of 5 points was easier. This year was the first a scoring app was frequently used for our team.

                    I don’t think the mission rules and scoring really changed the focus for teams from competing against the board to competing against one another. There has always been an element of competing against other teams in FLL, especially in the robot game. Indeed, there have often even been competitive missions, such as the Rats this year, or the race for the patent last season.

                    Overall, I think what Scott did changed the focus from “can our one team beat the board?” to “what is the best anyone in the world can do against the board?” I find myself cheering for the teams at the World Festival and the other tournament to keep setting the bar higher. Teams have already surpassed what I thought was possible. I find it fun and exciting not knowing what the high score for the year will be.

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                    • #11
                      Re: World Festival Scores

                      I too tend to dislike a board that would result in 'many' perfect scores, as like Time said - everyone is then in one top clump.

                      And I am not sure I see right away why 'beating the table' is all that different from 'beating other team's or your own last score'.

                      What I guess (and correct me if I am wrong Dean) is that in 150 seconds this year, you really had to scurry around to get the 'all' the base scoring elements. And in that scurrying around - there was not much room (and development time) to make or refine 'elegant' solutions. As I think Dean values the 'process' his team follows to discover mice, traps, mousetraps, and finally a 'better' mousetrap.

                      So in that sense, having a small 'scale' of missions that can have enough development time to offer more intuitive or simple or 'elegant' solutions. Elegant being defined as an engineer, not really in terms of looks or style - but function and purposeful design.

                      However at WF, and I am sure at many state levels - the 'elegance' of some of the multi-mission solutions did offer teams a chance to show thru this design refinement process. The multi-part bots, the non-motor actuators, the engrossing 'towers' that could rove once over many missions and complete them - these were still an outlet, yes?

                      Bottom line, I guess I would prefer a fairly traditional bell curve with only a small number of teams able to achieve the top scores. However, I think the game could offer something other than a single task (like the bacteria/sink) to account for this final differentiation. I'd like more in terms of mission selection in which a team really needed to stragetigize which ones they select and why. And it could produce wildly different runs for team A than team B, but could still put either in the top 5, score-wise.

                      But alas, the table is only 4x8 and Scott has a plastic budget to work within.

                      I'm gonna go register now...what the heck, huh? I can't wait until Aug 28, no matter what.

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                      • #12
                        Re: World Festival Scores

                        Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
                        And I am not sure I see right away why 'beating the table' is all that different from 'beating other team's or your own last score'.
                        There is only all the difference in the world. The difference between doing something special or just winning. The difference between sending a message that by working together we can solve complex problems or that everyone should look out for their own interests.

                        I know that for a lot of teams, "beating the table" was held as the ultimate goal in the robot game. You think it may be possible. You know it will be really hard and could take years, but it is a worthy goal. Because you know it is hard, success, even be it by others, is worthy of celebration. When you see a team beat the table you stand up and cheer. It is a defining moment. You share in their joy. It's like watching someone throw a perfect game against your team. Sure, we lost, but wasn't that something? For a while at least you remember that there are things a lot more important than winning and losing.

                        My girls got one perfect score in a tournament. They had dozens at home, but it took years and many lessons to design a solution that was finally perfect. When it happened the refs threw their hands up and whooped. My normally ice cold team were leaping and screaming like maniacs. They were mobbed by well wishers. When it came time for technical judging the room was packed and the girls gave an impromptu seminar on PID, sensor usage and robust design. It was epic. I used to think back on it and smile. Now I just feel sad. How terrible it is to cheat teams of the opportunity to have that experience.

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                        • #13
                          Re: World Festival Scores

                          Originally posted by timdavid View Post
                          I initially didn't like the change from a reachable 400 score to an unobtainable 452, but as the year progressed, I became more accepting of it and even started to like elements of the approach.
                          This year's game had a lot going for it. The interplay of elements. The weighing of risk and reward. The variety of scoring methods. It was a very good game. Even the sink was a fun idea until it was made rediculous through tedious repetition.

                          If you removed the bacteria in the sink mission and adjusted the points how would that have been worse? How many teams in the world were scoring 304+? How much more fun might it have been to change the rule so bacteria once in the base COULD NOT be placed in the sink? Reduce the number of bacteria in each dispensor to some more managable amount and reduce the point per piece so it no longer dominates the scoring.
                          Last edited by Dean Hystad; 05-08-2012, 02:49 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Re: World Festival Scores

                            I can see both sides of the issue.

                            It seems to me that with an open-ended challenge, each team is free to define for themselves (as best suits their abilities and goals) how much of the table they're trying to beat.

                            The Food Factor challenge relied on one repetitive task as the unlimited obstacle. The effectiveness of that strategy can be debated, but I entirely support the concept.

                            In the past, when multiple teams would get identical scores, was there an additional tie-breaker for the robot performance award? If so, was it based on minimum elapsed time, next-highest table score, consistency, or something else?
                            FIRST Tech Challenge Judge: 2010, Referee: 2017
                            FIRST LEGO League Mentor, Instructor, and/or Referee/Head Referee since 2011
                            FIRST Robotics Competition judge (Chairman's Award): 2014
                            Dean says I'm an "Oompa Loompa of Science"

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                            • #15
                              Re: World Festival Scores

                              Originally posted by Dean Hystad View Post
                              If you removed the bacteria in the sink mission and adjusted the points how would that have been worse? How many teams in the world were scoring 304+?
                              There were two teams at the World Festival that scored more than 308 points (the maximum number of possible points without putting any bacteria in the sink), and three teams that accomplished that feat at the Central European Championship. I think having the sink mission accomplished the goal of avoiding having multiple teams max out on the robot field, and helped avoid ties for robot performance. In my opinion, having one team edge another by a score of 323 to 320 is more exciting than having multiple teams achieving multiple perfect 400 point runs. Let the teams show what they can do, and give them enough room to differentiate themselves.

                              Think about athletes competing in the high jump event. If two athletes are both successful in jumping over the bar at a certain height, the event officials raise the bar and let them try again. Scott is just trying to avoid having the bar struck at a position that is too low.

                              However, I agree that the extra headroom could have been achieved in a more interesting way. Also, reducing the massive number of points given to the bacteria and adjusting the point totals for the other missions upwards would have resulted in a more normal point distribution. I think the kids (and adults) would have preferred to see scores closer to the typical 100 to 400 distribution, instead of seeing the vast majority of scores in the 100 to 200 range this year.

                              I do feel a twinge of regret that I'll never coach a team that hits a perfect 400. But even without achieving perfection, I've still seen teams celebrate wildly after a match, and I've still seen referees cheer and laugh and celebrate along with the kids. Even in the old system, the vast majority of teams never came close to a "perfect" game. The kids in FLL should all learn that achievements short of perfection can still be worthy of celebration.

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