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Refrigerated trailer in base

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  • #16
    Re: Refrigerated trailer in base

    Originally posted by begotus View Post
    In this case, I don't think rule 21 is needed nor intended to figure out what "in" means. In fact, I would count on these bacteria not being balanced on the edge of the trailer in any official tournament setup, despite the fact that this would be "in" according to rule 21.
    hmmmm.....that's an interesting idea. I strongly suspect our head referee will tell us not to put either or both of these on the side, but it would provide some interesting challenges. I'll have to bring it up; I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent it.
    Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
    KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

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    • #17
      Re: Refrigerated trailer in base

      Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
      I'll have to bring it up; I don't see anything in the rules that would prevent it.
      The Precedence/Authority rule, bullet 3, lets us use pictures in the Field Setup for guidance, with text taking precedence. The East Side/West Side pictures don't show the red bacteria on the refrigerated container walls, so it's reasonable to conclude that the intended location is inSIDE the container.
      Steve Scherr
      Referee and Judge, Virginia-DC, Maryland, and Ohio
      FLL Global Head Referee

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      • #18
        Re: Refrigerated trailer in base

        Originally posted by scherrsj View Post
        The Precedence/Authority rule, bullet 3, lets us use pictures in the Field Setup for guidance, with text taking precedence. The East Side/West Side pictures don't show the red bacteria on the refrigerated container walls, so it's reasonable to conclude that the intended location is inSIDE the container.
        I'm not trying to be difficult, but....the pics also show a particular arrangement of pieces inside base, and a particular arrangement of the bacteria in each disposal container. Taking your logic to an extreme, we have to set those up the same way. So where do we draw the line?

        Like I said, I can't imagine that we'll put those red bacteria on the sides of the truck, but it would provide an interesting challenge.
        Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
        KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

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        • #19
          Re: Refrigerated trailer in base

          Originally posted by scherrsj View Post
          The Precedence/Authority rule, bullet 3, lets us use pictures in the Field Setup for guidance, with text taking precedence. The East Side/West Side pictures don't show the red bacteria on the refrigerated container walls, so it's reasonable to conclude that the intended location is inSIDE the container.
          The top right picture on page 9 of field setup clearly shows the two red bacteria placed in the truck. The description on page 9 says "two red [bacteria] go in the refrigerated trailer".

          If we go by the picture, we have precise locations. Namely, one all the way forward and centered, the second immediately behind and to the left. As someonewhobikes pointed out, it doesn't make sense in general to go by the picture for precise placement.

          If we go by the text, "in" is well defined in rule 21 and could mean on the edge of the trailer or on the front bar for that matter. "Into" is neither used in the text, nor well defined in the rules.

          Again, I believe "into" is implied. Yet I have fun pointing out all of the flaws that follow from Rule 3.
          Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.
          - Albert Einstein

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          • #20
            Re: Refrigerated trailer in base

            Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
            Like I said, I can't imagine that we'll put those red bacteria on the sides of the truck, but it would provide an interesting challenge.
            In your tournaments, do the competitors place the mission models on the table? In my experience, the refs always set the table and any adjustments are in accordance with Rule 14:
            Quality Control – During your pre-match setup time only, you may ask the ref to double-check that a particular setup is correct/within spec, but you may not request any custom setup, in or out of the range specified in the setup instructions.
            In my reading of the rules, as long as the bacteria are inside the walls of the trailer, the competitors could not request any adjustments. Perched on the sides would be legal, but a ref who did that would be diabolical, since they would be likely to fall off if the trailer were moved.

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            • #21
              Re: Refrigerated trailer in base

              Originally posted by JohnMcDonnell View Post
              In your tournaments, do the competitors place the mission models on the table? In my experience, the refs always set the table and any adjustments are in accordance with Rule 14.
              Read the next section of rule 14 (Changing Things Outside of Base). Nope, the kids can't touch any mission models, before or during the match, unless their robot has brought the item(s) back to base.
              Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
              KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

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              • #22
                Re: Refrigerated trailer in base

                Originally posted by JohnMcDonnell View Post
                Perched on the sides would be legal, but a ref who did that would be diabolical, since they would be likely to fall off if the trailer were moved.
                Such a ref would surely be in league with the lunatic chicken!

                I just bring up these "literal" interpretations for fun. "In" is such a common word that redefining it in the rules leads to more confusion rather than more clarity. A better approach than redefining common words in the rules would be to use accurate language. For example, if by "in" one means "overlapping", it would be clearer to use the term "overlapping".

                In the case of the placement of the red bacteria in the truck, clearly the common usage of "in" meaning "inside" is meant, not the redefined usage meaning "overlapping". Sometimes (often times) common sense serves one better than literal interpretations.
                Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.
                - Albert Einstein

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                • #23
                  Re: Refrigerated trailer in base

                  Originally posted by begotus View Post
                  Such a ref would surely be in league with the lunatic chicken!
                  Well put. I must say that the lunatic chicken (along with the 2017 farm animal contract) have replace my previous favorite "rule", which was the requirement for great-looking hair on the minifigs last year.

                  In the case of the placement of the red bacteria in the truck, clearly the common usage of "in" meaning "inside" is meant, not the redefined usage meaning "overlapping". Sometimes (often times) common sense serves one better than literal interpretations.
                  I agree...common sense (mine, at least) thinks they should be totally within the walls of the truck. But this will be a good thing to put into one of my rules tests with the kids.
                  Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                  KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

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                  • #24
                    Re: Refrigerated trailer in base

                    Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                    Well put. I must say that the lunatic chicken (along with the 2017 farm animal contract) have replace my previous favorite "rule", which was the requirement for great-looking hair on the minifigs last year.
                    Who's going to join me in emailing Scott Evans during the 2017 season asking "Where are the farm animals?"

                    //Andrew
                    RoboDesigners

                    VRC Team 2190

                    Visit my website! www.RoboDesigners.com

                    Twitter: @RoboDesigners

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