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  • rule about shooting things with the robot.

    Hi

    The kids on our team were talking about ways to launch or extend the bacteria into the sink with the robot. However in the rules it states:

    "You may not hand-place, extend, roll, topple, drop, throw eject, slide, or shoot things out of base... Only the robot may make changes outside of base..."

    The wording is confusing here... shouldn't is say "You may not hand-place, extend, roll, topple, drop, throw eject, slide, or shoot things out of base while the robot is inside/touching base? The wording "Only the robot may make changes outside of base." implies that it would be acceptable for the robot to drive out of base AND THEN extend, roll, topple, drop, throw eject, slide, or shoot things?

    Thanks!

  • #2
    Re: rule about shooting things with the robot.

    Originally posted by coloroo View Post
    Hi

    The kids on our team were talking about ways to launch or extend the bacteria into the sink with the robot. However in the rules it states:

    "You may not hand-place, extend, roll, topple, drop, throw eject, slide, or shoot things out of base... Only the robot may make changes outside of base..."

    The wording is confusing here... shouldn't is say "You may not hand-place, extend, roll, topple, drop, throw eject, slide, or shoot things out of base while the robot is inside/touching base? The wording "Only the robot may make changes outside of base." implies that it would be acceptable for the robot to drive out of base AND THEN extend, roll, topple, drop, throw eject, slide, or shoot things?

    Thanks!
    I think that your team may be interpreting this rule too narrowly. Rule 14 is about "Handling"--so primarily about what team members do manually.

    The first two sentences in "Changing Things Outside Base" are emphasizing what team-members may not do by hand. The third sentence emphasizes that only the robot is allowed to affect the field outside Base. (Note that the subject of the sentences changes from "You" to "the Robot".)

    Yes, the robot can extend, roll, topple, etc. once it outside of Base, but I don't see any restriction in the rules about the robot causing actions while it is still in Base and active.

    To succeed in the Hand-washing mission, it might not be a good idea for the robot to launch, roll, extend... bacteria while the robot is still in Base, because of the constraints from the mission, but I believe that it is allowable.
    Steve Scherr
    Referee and Judge, Virginia-DC, Maryland, and Ohio
    FLL Global Head Referee

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: rule about shooting things with the robot.

      Originally posted by coloroo View Post
      "You may not hand-place, extend, roll, topple, drop, throw eject, slide, or shoot things out of base... Only the robot may make changes outside of base..."
      I agree that this wording is confusing. If you look at the context, however, this is the explanation for "Changing Things Outside Base" under Rule 14 - HANDLING (MISCELLANEOUS).

      I interpret the entire restriction as applying to what you may not do with your hand while handling the robot outside of base.

      If this applies to the robot then rolling wheels would be prohibited.
      Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.
      - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: rule about shooting things with the robot.

        Originally posted by coloroo View Post
        The wording is confusing here... shouldn't is say "You may not hand-place, extend, roll, topple, drop, throw eject, slide, or shoot things out of base while the robot is inside/touching base?The wording "Only the robot may make changes outside of base." implies that it would be acceptable for the robot to drive out of base AND THEN extend, roll, topple, drop, throw eject, slide, or shoot things?

        Thanks!
        Since this is in the Handling section, the "You" is referring to team members at the competition table. There is no restriction to the robot throwing, ejecting or shooting items in or out of the base as long as not other rules are violated
        Tim Tedrow
        Addicted to FIRST since 2000.
        No known treatment or cure.
        EnTech281

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: rule about shooting things with the robot.

          Ok, that interpetation of the rules does make sense to me. So the kids could hypothetically set up a conveyor belt from the robot to the sink whilst the robot was inside base, and then place the bacteria one by one on the conveyor while it was moving in order to get them to the sink? It says in the rules that the robot becomes "inactive" when it is touched and must be restarted from base, implying that this occurs when the robot is touched outside of base. But it doesn't mention anything about the robot being touched while it is active in base.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: rule about shooting things with the robot.

            Originally posted by TimTedrow View Post
            Since this is in the Handling section, the "You" is referring to team members at the competition table. There is no restriction to the robot throwing, ejecting or shooting items in or out of the base as long as not other rules are violated
            The "Changing Things Outside Base" rule repeats ideas presented in the "12 - AUTONOMY" section. Basically the robot is the only thing that can affect items outside of base. You can manipulate any item while it is in the base, but manual manipulations in the base cannot directly affect anything outside the base. You can build a catapult to launch items, but the catapult must be activated by the robot.

            That said, you cannot launch bacteria from inside the base as it violates the third rule for that mission "All equipment involved with each trip to the sink was completely in Base at the beginning of the trip and completely out of base at the end of the trip." Launching is an option, but you'll have to come up with a method that meets that rule.

            Conveyer belts don't work either unless they start out completely in base at the beginning of the bacterium's trip and are completely out of base at the end. Also, once the conveyor belt started moving you cannot interract with it in any way (such as dropping bacteria on it). Touching or interracting with the robot or any attachment makes it inactive (12 - Active Robot <> Inactive Robot). Notice that the rule says that after the robot is started it remains active until the next time it is touched. It does not say "touched outside of base". Any touch makes an active robot inactive.
            Last edited by Dean Hystad; 09-07-2011, 11:35 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: rule about shooting things with the robot.

              Originally posted by Dean Hystad View Post
              The "Changing Things Outside Base" rule repeats ideas presented in the "12 - AUTONOMY" section. Basically the robot is the only thing that can affect items outside of base. You can manipulate any item while it is in the base, but manual manipulations in the base cannot directly affect anything outside the base. You can build a catapult to launch items, but the catapult must be activated by the robot.

              That said, you cannot launch bacteria from inside the base as it violates the third rule for that mission "All equipment involved with each trip to the sink was completely in Base at the beginning of the trip and completely out of base at the end of the trip." Launching is an option, but you'll have to come up with a method that meets that rule.
              I forgot about that rule - thank you for the clarification.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: rule about shooting things with the robot.

                Originally posted by coloroo View Post
                Ok, that interpetation of the rules does make sense to me. So the kids could hypothetically set up a conveyor belt from the robot to the sink whilst the robot was inside base, and then place the bacteria one by one on the conveyor while it was moving in order to get them to the sink? It says in the rules that the robot becomes "inactive" when it is touched and must be restarted from base, implying that this occurs when the robot is touched outside of base. But it doesn't mention anything about the robot being touched while it is active in base.
                "All equipment involved with each bacterium’s trip to the sink was
                --completely in Base at the beginning of the trip.
                --completely out of Base at the end of the trip."

                The conveyor belt won't work.

                Shooting could work, but the robot has to move in and out of base for each bacterium. Also, one miss and you lose points (20 if interpretted literally) for the DISINFECT mission!
                Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.
                - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: rule about shooting things with the robot.

                  Originally posted by coloroo View Post
                  Ok, that interpetation of the rules does make sense to me. So the kids could hypothetically set up a conveyor belt from the robot to the sink whilst the robot was inside base, and then place the bacteria one by one on the conveyor while it was moving in order to get them to the sink? It says in the rules that the robot becomes "inactive" when it is touched and must be restarted from base, implying that this occurs when the robot is touched outside of base. But it doesn't mention anything about the robot being touched while it is active in base.
                  You need to read the Hand Washing mission more carefully. The mission says that all "equipment" used in the delivery of the bacteria must start completely within Base, and the bacteria cannot be delivered until all that equipment is outside of Base. You would have to reposition your conveyor for delivery of every piece.

                  In addition, touching the Robot anywhere (in or out of Base) requires a restart. See Rules 12 Autonomy and 13, Active Robot <> Inactive Robot. The only difference that handling in Base makes is that you do not lose a Touch Penalty item (yellow bacterium).

                  As others have noted, "you" in rule 14 means you, the robot driver.

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