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  • M04 - West transfer area?

    Mission M04 refers to west transfer area however in area definition this area is not defined. It only defines east transfer, landfill and sorter area. will there be update or we make assumption here?

  • #2
    Re: M04 - West transfer area?

    It looks like you`re right... In the international challenge document, the west transfer area is not defined (in our document in CentralEurope it is), so there will probably be an update but I assume it will be just the area in the north-western corner of the mat just like it is in the north-east. This is just how it looks in our challenge document in CE: http://www.first-lego-league.org/fil...01%20Zonen.jpg
    Probably you are good working with this before any update will be released.

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    • #3
      Re: M04 - West transfer area?

      This is an artifact of the fact that the original rules had a typo, substituting "east" for west. Words were fixed but not pictures.

      Given that there are two identical areas in the NE and NW corners, where the transfer models are located, I feel it is an extremely safe bet that the western such area is the west transfer area.
      Team members and coaches in North Carolina, direct your rules questions to referee@nc-fll.com

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      • #4
        Re: M04 - West transfer area?

        Thanks all replies. This is really helpful. I updated team that they can assume west area and go ahead

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        • #5
          Re: M04 - West transfer area?

          Originally posted by Makpande View Post
          Thanks all replies. This is really helpful. I updated team that they can assume west area and go ahead
          Anything the team assumes can be at risk. The Forum is just for discussion - these aren't official rulings.
          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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          • #6
            Re: M04 - West transfer area?

            I'm going to make this question harder and more important.

            The East Transfer Area is defined by two red lines on the diagram. First question, how can an "area" be defined by just two lines? Shouldn't there be at least 4 lines? Does the East Transfer Area extend infinitely to the north and infinitely to the east or is the East Transfer Area bounded by the north wall and bounded the east wall? Basically I want to know, is the East Transfer completely within the East Transfer Area or is the East Transfer partially within the East Transfer Area?

            Now apply these questions to the West Transfer Area. Is the West Transfer Area bounded by the table walls? Is the West Transfer partially or completely within the West Transfer Area?

            Now read carefully the scoring as described in M04. The way I read it, the maximum M04 score is 231 and involves no cooperation. If the other team gives you all 27 of their bars, I think the maximum M01+M04 score is 556 although the other team probably wouldn't be happy about it. They might even be hit with a -96 penalty depending on how a judge interprets "THE landfill bin" vs. "A landfill bin".
            Last edited by WilliamFrantz; 09-22-2015, 01:14 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: M04 - West transfer area?

              Now read carefully the scoring as described in M04. The way I read it, the maximum M04 score is 231 and involves no cooperation. If the other team gives you all 27 of their bars, I think the maximum M01+M04 score is 556 although the other team probably wouldn't be happy about it.
              WilliamFrantz, Our team read this the same way as you. I am very curious as to other people's opinions.

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              • #8
                Re: M04 - West transfer area?

                Interesting question, but M01 is the only mission that contains the words 'other team'.

                If the other team can give you their bars (and you process them through your sorter?) and then you get points for them being in your green bins, then what's to stop a sacrificial team on the opposite board from also giving you their plastic bags, animals, toy planes, a methane along with the Truck to put it in ... ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: M04 - West transfer area?

                  Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                  The East Transfer Area is defined by two red lines on the diagram. First question, how can an "area" be defined by just two lines? Shouldn't there be at least 4 lines? Does the East Transfer Area extend infinitely to the north and infinitely to the east or is the East Transfer Area bounded by the north wall and bounded the east wall? Basically I want to know, is the East Transfer completely within the East Transfer Area or is the East Transfer partially within the East Transfer Area?
                  Per the rule the red lines are showing the white stripes that are the edge of the area. Since 1) there are no white stripes at the edges of the field; and 2) D04 defines the field as being surrounded by border walls; and 3) "area" -- according to Merriam-Webster -- is a finite region; I'm going with my common sense and say that the transfer areas stop at the edge of each team's field, and are therefore not infinite.

                  Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                  Now read carefully the scoring as described in M04. The way I read it, the maximum M04 score is 231 and involves no cooperation. If the other team gives you all 27 of their bars, I think the maximum M01+M04 score is 556 although the other team probably wouldn't be happy about it.
                  There are only 15x7 (105) points available in yellow and blue bars in your West Transfer Area; black bars score no additional points if that bin is moved there. Even if your scenario is not (I mean no offense; using the terms in the rules) outrageous or absurd, the max score for this would be much lower.

                  Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                  They might even be hit with a -96 penalty depending on how a judge interprets "THE landfill bin" vs. "A landfill bin".
                  Your logic is making even less sense to me. If you're going to allow for some large part of the other sides' field to be scorable areas for your team, why would something in that area be excluded? And pet peeve here - judges don't have anything to do with matches; that's referees.

                  I think you're trying to make this too hard.
                  Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                  KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: M04 - West transfer area?

                    Nothing should stop us (except time) from processing all but one of their bars if for some reason they put more than one in their bins.

                    what's to stop a sacrificial team on the opposite board from also giving you their plastic bags, animals, toy planes, a methane along with the Truck to put it in ... ?
                    Now we know what we can do with our extra person (if we cant get the judge to rule that the second person is an animal).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: M04 - West transfer area?

                      Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                      There are only 15x7 (105) points available in yellow and blue bars in your West Transfer Area
                      You aren't seeing what I'm seeing. There are a total of 30 yellow and blue bars in play and they are worth up to 13 points each according to your definition of the West Transfer Area.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: M04 - West transfer area?

                        Originally posted by cschaffer View Post
                        Nothing should stop us (except time) from processing all but one of their bars if for some reason they put more than one in their bins.
                        Did you give your Bins to the other team? If so into what will you be sorting those bars?
                        Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                        KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: M04 - West transfer area?

                          Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                          You aren't seeing what I'm seeing. There are a total of 30 yellow and blue bars in play and they are worth up to 13 points each according to your definition of the West Transfer Area.
                          I see what you see; as I said in my previous post I reject your interpretation as invalid. As for 13 per bar - how? Are not "...completely in your West Transfer Area...." and "...was never completely in...." mutually exclusive? How do you propose to fulfill both conditions?
                          Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                          KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: M04 - West transfer area?

                            I agree with someonewhobikes and would add that I don't see anything in the rules stating that a team can score points off their counterparts' models if such is not specifically stated in the rules (the only place it is stated is in M01.)

                            Assuming that a teams' West Transfer extends onto the east of their counterparts' table, bars in bins in that area would score for the team that "owns" them, not for their counterpart.
                            Team members and coaches in North Carolina, direct your rules questions to referee@nc-fll.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: M04 - West transfer area?

                              Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                              I'm going to make this question harder and more important.

                              The East Transfer Area is defined by two red lines on the diagram. First question, how can an "area" be defined by just two lines? Shouldn't there be at least 4 lines? Does the East Transfer Area extend infinitely to the north and infinitely to the east or is the East Transfer Area bounded by the north wall and bounded the east wall? Basically I want to know, is the East Transfer completely within the East Transfer Area or is the East Transfer partially within the East Transfer Area?

                              Now apply these questions to the West Transfer Area. Is the West Transfer Area bounded by the table walls? Is the West Transfer partially or completely within the West Transfer Area?

                              Now read carefully the scoring as described in M04. The way I read it, the maximum M04 score is 231 and involves no cooperation. If the other team gives you all 27 of their bars, I think the maximum M01+M04 score is 556 although the other team probably wouldn't be happy about it. They might even be hit with a -96 penalty depending on how a judge interprets "THE landfill bin" vs. "A landfill bin".
                              The West Transfer Area is currently undefined. A rules update is needed.

                              You have a good point about the undocumented borders of the Areas. The definition on Page 26 is incomplete. A rules update is needed. Please ask for one, Scott is getting tired of getting email from me.

                              The Landfill Bin is a mission model. The team cannot bring or create duplicate mission models.

                              Can you detail your points calculations? I can't come up with matching numbers.
                              FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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