Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

M04 - West transfer area?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Re: M04 - West transfer area?

    Originally posted by mkirkwood View Post
    If at the end of the match the bin is on the West Transfer and it was never completely in the West Transfer Area, score 13 points per bar.
    Upon further review, via the method of westward translation along the North border, this seems like a reasonable scenario. Perhaps the bizarre wording of M04 was meant to leave this as a hidden freedom. I appreciate everyone's analysis of this. It's a lot to wrap one's brain around.

    From a game design standpoint (which has nothing to do with the rules), what the 13-point/bar scenario does is create a bonus for putting a bin in the West Transfer by a more difficult method than just driving straight North out of Base.

    It will be interesting to see if the official scoring resources allow for this combination.
    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: M04 - West transfer area?

      Originally posted by CraigP View Post
      The zero-point condition for a bin that the other team takes off the transfer and fails to get to their safety is particularly troubling.
      Actually, applying the "never completely in the West Transfer Area" clause, might avoid the zero-point condition. For example, You put a bar in the bin (+6), You extend the bin over the North wall, You move the bin partially through the transfer area (-0), You drop the bin on the Transfer (+7), They pick up the bin (-7) and fail to get it to safety (+0). You are still at +6, IF Your bar still contributes to Your score at the end of the Match even though Your bar is on Their mat. I think this is the interpretation SamLast favors.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: M04 - West transfer area?

        Originally posted by mkirkwood View Post
        WilliamFrantz is 100% correct with regard to the 13 point case.

        This is a straight up interpretation of the rules. I'm failing to see the absurdity. The bin doesn't need to be "juggled" in some tricky or deceptive way. GP2: "If taking text literally seems to allow an arguably clever strategy or advantage, then it’s allowed." Couple this with GP3, "You get the “benefit of the doubt” when the Ref is unable to point to compelling official text to support a call." and this becomes a no brainer. If at the end of the match the bin is on the West Transfer and it was never completely in the West Transfer Area, score 13 points per bar.

        There are 2 potential complications, but I think they are easily figured out.
        There's a third potential complication that has to do with required sequence. My original readings of the rules got me thinking - rightly or wrongly - that the Bins have to go through the Transfer Area before being placed on the Transfer. I'm not so sure of that any more and have sent in the question.
        Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
        KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: M04 - West transfer area?

          The wording is pretty clear to me about the required sequence. The Per Bin score requires that the bin traveled through the West Transfer (at least that's my interpretation of "by way of"). It doesn't say that it has to be completely in the West Transfer Area.

          As to mutual exclusivity, bullets 1 and 2 are clearly mutually exclusive since they are different physical locations at the end of the match. Bullet 3 is not mutually exclusive with bullet 1 or bullet 2 because of the "was never" clause as long as you believe it is possible to put the bin on the Transfer without ever being completely in the Area. As WilliamFrantz pointed out, this interpretation gives you a way to avoid the zero point case if the other team fumbles the bin on the way back to base. That's what convinced me that this was the intended interpretation. I think the team is still SOL if the other team drops the bin such that the bars fall out, however.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: M04 - West transfer area?

            Originally posted by mkirkwood View Post
            As to mutual exclusivity, bullets 1 and 2 are clearly mutually exclusive since they are different physical locations at the end of the match. Bullet 3 is not mutually exclusive with bullet 1 or bullet 2 because of the "was never" clause as long as you believe it is possible to put the bin on the Transfer without ever being completely in the Area. As WilliamFrantz pointed out, this interpretation gives you a way to avoid the zero point case if the other team fumbles the bin on the way back to base. That's what convinced me that this was the intended interpretation. I think the team is still SOL if the other team drops the bin such that the bars fall out, however.
            Except that from what Scott told me I believe that was not the intention. I asked specifically about that Bin with Bars in it going from n to zero points as soon as the other team takes it off the transfer. Of course, it is possibe that Scott left a loophole he didn't notice. This is why I suspect the sequence includes going completely into the Transfer Area.

            Bottom line: the M01 & M04 rules really need an update.
            Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
            KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: M04 - West transfer area?

              Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
              Except that from what Scott told me I believe that was not the intention. I asked specifically about that Bin with Bars in it going from n to zero points as soon as the other team takes it off the transfer. Of course, it is possibe that Scott left a loophole he didn't notice. This is why I suspect the sequence includes going completely into the Transfer Area.

              Bottom line: the M01 & M04 rules really need an update.
              What makes sense from a game design standpoint is to get a certain amount of points for sorting the bars into the bins, a few more points for moving the bins into the transfer area, and even more points if the other team retrieves them. Losing points based on the action of the other team doesn't seem consistent with FLL's goals.
              FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

              Comment

              Working...
              X