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  • R14 - something it was transporting

    R14 – Stranding – If the UNINTERRUPTED Robot loses contact with something it was transporting, that thing must be allowed to come to rest. Once it does, here’s what happens, depending on its rest location...
    What about something the robot was not transporting? What happens to those things?

    For example, if the team uses a jig to align the robot in base, and the jig is pinched between the robot and the wall, and the jig is very tall; then the robot goes Autonomous and leaves base, and the jig topples over, and the jig lands partly in safety; is there a Junk penalty?

    The ref might say, "no" because the jig was not something the robot was transporting. The departure of the robot resulted in the jig falling but not because the robot knocked it over. It's gravity.

    The ref might say, "yes" because the clause "it was transporting" includes any equipment that interacts with the robot in any way.

    If the falling jig is OK, then what about jigs specifically designed to fall? What about spring loaded equipment that shoots out of base as the robot departs? (Perhaps bowling over the M10 building)

  • #2
    Re: R14 - something it was transporting

    I believe that for this rule the world "transport" means any motion caused by the robot. Even if the equipment has stored energy that energy is released by the robot moving.

    The tumbling jig is a slightly different question. Clearly it has stored energy that was released by the robot, but R12 says you may recover items you accidentally propel out of base. By "you", I believe they mean a person, not a robot. But if the jig was propelled into safety by operator error is that an accident caused by "you"? I would think most referees would give the team a break.

    Do you get an immediate junk penalty? My answer is YES for intentional junk even if the motion was mostly caused by stored energy and NO for junk that results from an accident. So if you want something to extend out of base but don't want a junk penalty it had better return to be completely inside safety, or stop completely outside safety and later the robot can retrieve the object (where it needs to end up completely inside safety). Remember that penalties are small, and that getting a penalty doesn't mean your solution is bad. If you can earn 60 points by taking a junk penalty, go for it.
    Last edited by Dean Hystad; 09-25-2015, 11:50 AM.

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    • #3
      Re: R14 - something it was transporting

      Is there a time element to cases of stranding partly in Safety? Take a legal lever type device, starts in base, triggered by to bot to fall, it lands straddling the Safety arc. An immediate R14 junk penalty is applied. But what about the device? The text says to take it into Safety and keep it. Does that mean right away after occurence? Or can the device sit there and perhaps be used by the bot later?

      I am thinking it needs to be picked up right away but i do not see text to support that.

      The idea that a bot may later use something that still has a presence in safety then opens questions about what hand actions are allowded on that device makes it muddy.

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      • #4
        Re: R14 - something it was transporting

        Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
        Is there a time element to cases of stranding partly in Safety? Take a legal lever type device, starts in base, triggered by to bot to fall, it lands straddling the Safety arc. An immediate R14 junk penalty is applied. But what about the device? The text says to take it into Safety and keep it. Does that mean right away after occurence? Or can the device sit there and perhaps be used by the bot later?

        I am thinking it needs to be picked up right away but i do not see text to support that.

        The idea that a bot may later use something that still has a presence in safety then opens questions about what hand actions are allowded on that device makes it muddy.
        The way I read the rules is that R10 says that when something is in Safety you are allowed to touch it. R11 talks about handling things that are in Storage. R14 tells us that Equipment or Models that come to rest completely in Safety are kept by the team. I like Dean's interpretation of 'transporting' in R14, so anything the Robot causes to move (unless accidental and non-strategic -- say, it bumps a Stored item while launching, propelling it out of Safety, and it was clearly accidental) is to be treated in accordance with R14 after it comes to rest. So, without it quite being explicitly stated, it take these rules together to be saying that when Equipment or a Model comes to rest completely in Safety it immediately becomes a Stored item. The team may leave it where it is, or pick it up and move it to another Storage location, but it becomes non-strategic. If the Robot is going to interact with it during a subsequent Autonomous period, then the item must be brought back into Base (manually, as a Stored item) and handled in accordance with the requirements of R12. If it is resting completely in Safety but not completely in Base, then the Robot wouldn't be allowed to interact with it in any strategic manner, because it's a Stored item. I thus take the wording of R14 with respect to equipment coming to rest partly in Safety to mean that the item becomes a Stored item when it comes to rest, along with causing a Junk Penalty. The team could leave it lying there, straddling the Safety line, but only in the sense that a Stored item could be left in that position in a non-strategic manner.

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        • #5
          Re: R14 - something it was transporting

          A jig that falls over but remains completely inside of Safety gets no penalty (R14).
          R10 doesn't grant permission to touch objects that are inside Safety - it says they cannot touch things that are entirely outside of Safety. R14 covers the "completely inside Safety" condition.
          If the fallen jig lands partly outside of Safety, then assess an immediate Junk penalty and the team can recover the jig (D09 and R14).

          An extendable autonomous accessory that is launched by the robot (but detached from it), which remains partly inside Safety, also gets a junk penalty - once it comes to rest. So if it's actively accomplishing a mission, it can continue doing so.
          Last edited by Tom Mosher; 09-25-2015, 03:34 PM.
          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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          • #6
            Re: R14 - something it was transporting

            Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
            R10 doesn't grant permission to touch objects that are inside Safety - it says they cannot touch things that are entirely outside of Safety. R14 covers the "completely inside Safety" condition.
            If what they touch is the Robot (or something it's transporting) while it's Autonomous, then it's Interrupted (with no Interruption Penalty) -- so that's a case where they are allowed to touch something, but it does have a specific implication.

            In what cases would they not be allowed to freely touch something that's completely in Safety?

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            • #7
              Re: R14 - something it was transporting

              Originally posted by CraigP View Post
              So, without it quite being explicitly stated, it take these rules together to be saying that when Equipment or a Model comes to rest completely in Safety it immediately becomes a Stored item. The team may leave it where it is, or pick it up and move it to another Storage location, but it becomes non-strategic. If the Robot is going to interact with it during a subsequent Autonomous period, then the item must be brought back into Base (manually, as a Stored item) and handled in accordance with the requirements of R12. If it is resting completely in Safety but not completely in Base, then the Robot wouldn't be allowed to interact with it in any strategic manner, because it's a Stored item.
              I don't see why something that lands in base automatically becomes a stored item (a term which is never used in the rules, btw). How do you come to that conclusion? Do you see anything that prevents a team from placing something completely inside Safety by hand while the robot is Autonomous, and then have the robot drive in and start transporting that object without further human interaction?

              R11 just allows things to be placed non-strategicly outside of Safety to avoid overcrowding. I don't see it defining a special status that prevents the robot from using such items while completely inside Safety.
              Last edited by someonewhobikes; 09-25-2015, 05:46 PM.
              Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
              KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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              • #8
                Re: R14 - something it was transporting

                Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
                If the fallen jig lands partly outside of Safety, then assess an immediate Junk penalty ... (D09 and R14).
                Well, this is the essence of the question. Why does R14 apply to a fallen jig that was not being "transported" by the robot?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: R14 - something it was transporting

                  It only applies to the fallen jig if it is straddling the safety line - so yes, if a jig is "dragged" over the line by the robot or shoved by the robot after a restart. If it is all the way in it is ok to touch, if it is all the way out it when it falls off, then the robot has the option to manipulate it later, but it can't be human touched.

                  If the robot is restarted and the jig is all in base, then it can be removed by hand and if "dropped" or accidentally pushed over the line by hand as it is being moved, then no it would not be a penalty in my opinion since it was completely in safety when the robot last touched it.

                  Some kids hate this rule, but I actually like it because it will help remove clutter created by an incomplete mission that will get in the robot's way on a restart (yes, you do get the penalty).
                  Last edited by educatedrobot; 09-25-2015, 06:25 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: R14 - something it was transporting

                    Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                    I don't see why something that lands in base automatically becomes a stored item (a term which is never used in the rules, btw). How do you come to that conclusion? Do you see anything that prevents a team from placing something completely inside Safety by hand while the robot is Autonomous, and then have the robot drive in and start transporting that object without further human interaction?

                    R11 just allows things to be placed non-strategicly outside of Safety to avoid overcrowding. I don't see it defining a special status that prevents the robot from using such items while completely inside Safety.

                    Yes, sorry for capitalizing 'Stored' as though I were creating a new official term within the rules -- that was a bit presumptuous of me. And I should have had a few more qualifications along the lines of "...one possible interpretation..." and "...the way I might read it..." interspersed at several points in the paragraph.

                    I'm thinking that part of the intent of R12 is that everything that the team places by hand for the Robot to use must start completely within Base, before the Robot becomes Autonomous, and it is up to Robot action (including possibly releasing potential energy within cleverly designed Equipment) to make things happen out on the rest of the Field. Per R12, "You are not allowed to cause anything to leave or even extend out of Base except by Launching/re-Launching". I'm understanding Base to be the 'gate' through which Equipment or Models that are in the team's possession are allowed to enter/re-enter the Field, in accordance with the detailed requirements of R12.

                    Equipment or Models that are in the team's possession are allowed to be set down (stored) on a side table or cart provided by the team adjacent to the Table, or on the Field (within Safety or extending out of Safety into adjacent irrelevant Field space) if done in a non-strategic manner. (my interpretation of R11)

                    When a piece of Equipment or a Model is Stranded (per R14), then "that thing must be allowed to come to rest. Once it does, here's what happens, ..." I'm reading the phrase "Once it does, here's what happens" to mean that whatever is going to happen will occur immediately when it comes to rest.

                    If the Equipment or Model is completely in Safety, then "Keep it." -- I'm reading "Keep it." to mean that it comes back into the team's possession. It can only re-enter the Field for strategic purposes through a re-launch in accordance with R12, but sitting there in Safety where it came to rest is a legal storage place for an item in the team's possession, so while it's 'virtually' off the Field they are not obligated to actually pick it up.

                    If Stranded Equipment is partly in Safety, then it likewise comes back into the team's possession (they "Keep it."), and also a Junk Penalty occurs. Similarly to the previous case, sitting there straddling the Safety arc is a legal storage place for an item in the team's possession, so they're not obligated to pick it up but its remaining in that location must be non-strategic.

                    These are just my readings of the rules, but I'm trying to imagine how I (or a Ref) might make the call, in the absence of further official clarification.
                    Last edited by CraigP; 09-25-2015, 09:01 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: R14 - something it was transporting

                      Originally posted by CraigP View Post
                      Yes, sorry for capitalizing 'Stored' as though I were creating a new official term within the rules -- that was a bit presumptuous of me. And I should have had a few more qualifications along the lines of "...one possible interpretation..." and "...the way I might read it..." interspersed at several points in the paragraph.
                      I'm pretty sure I've capitalized a few things I shouldn't have; no biggie. As for the other -- if we all added those phrases for everything we write everyone's posts would be quite a bit longer.

                      Originally posted by CraigP View Post
                      I'm thinking that part of the intent of R12 is that everything that the team places by hand for the Robot to use must start completely within Base, before the Robot becomes Autonomous, and it is up to Robot action (including possibly releasing potential energy within cleverly designed Equipment) to make things happen out on the rest of the Field. Per R12, "You are not allowed to cause anything to leave or even extend out of Base except by Launching/re-Launching". I'm understanding Base to be the 'gate' through which Equipment or Models that are in the team's possession are allowed to enter/re-enter the Field, in accordance with the detailed requirements of R12.
                      The questions for that "You are not allowed to cause...." bullet in R12 are 1) What's the definition of "you"? and 2) how direct of a causal relationship is meant by the word "cause". I think (and this has been pointed out by a couple of people in other discussions; I'm sorry I don't remember who) that the word "you" in that statement means the team, not the robot. For the 2nd, can the robot do something on its own to cause something to leave Base? If so, how did that something get there legally?

                      In previous years there was a section of rules for people actions, and another for robot actions. Combining them like this does not, imo, bring clarity. Yes, I'm channeling previous years' rules, as I should not, but I don't see anything here that disallows what teams have been doing for years -- placing something in base and have the robot pick that up on its way through. Maybe that should be in Base instead of Safety like I said in my previous post, but the storage rules don't appear to forbid strategic placement within Safety. It's just my interpretation of that bullet in R12, but I think it's OK for teams to place something in Safety & have the robot use it without relaunch.

                      Let's talk about Models for a second. If you use the word "Transport" to mean "any movement caused by the robot" then R14 is pretty clear. But if you define it (as I do) to require *intentional* movement you open up some other issues. The big concern for me is knocking the building from the east. Some of the Bars will go into Safety; others will straddle the line, and others will remain totally outside. If knocking the building down is transportation, we require the refs to pounce on all of the bars that are not completely on one side or the other of the Safety boundary. That's going to be really hard if the robot is still moving west. I think that's too hard (even if the robot pauses); I'd like to give the robot the chance to keep pushing to get everything Safe.

                      If we go with your definition of "once it's in Safety it's stored and the robot can't interact with it", are we requiring the teams to move those Bars out of the way as the robot comes into Safety? What's the penalty for not doing that? Again, I think this is complicating things more than is needed, and since the rules don't specifically say that those Models are taboo, it's OK for the robot to interact with them.

                      Originally posted by CraigP View Post
                      Equipment or Models that are in the team's possession are allowed to be set down (stored) on a side table or cart provided by the team adjacent to the Table, or on the Field (within Safety or extending out of Safety into adjacent irrelevant Field space) if done in a non-strategic manner. (my interpretation of R11)
                      I agree, but that's all R11 does -- allow for storage.

                      Originally posted by CraigP View Post
                      These are just my readings of the rules, but I'm trying to imagine how I (or a Ref) might make the call, in the absence of further official clarification.
                      Me too -- just my readings. But I'm also trying to determine how I'm going to instruct the refs in my region how to make calls, and these forum discussions are very valuable to me. There's no way I can think of every situation; I just want to make sure that as other people state things I haven't thought of that I understand what they're saying, and why. I've already changed several of my initial ideas about the rules based on the forums; I'm sure that will be benefiting teams in the region. So thank you.
                      Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                      KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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                      • #12
                        Re: R14 - something it was transporting

                        Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post

                        Let's talk about Models for a second. If you use the word "Transport" to mean "any movement caused by the robot" then R14 is pretty clear. But if you define it (as I do) to require *intentional* movement you open up some other issues. The big concern for me is knocking the building from the east. Some of the Bars will go into Safety; others will straddle the line, and others will remain totally outside. If knocking the building down is transportation, we require the refs to pounce on all of the bars that are not completely on one side or the other of the Safety boundary.
                        Yes, some bars have a good chance of landing at partially in safety. Today, we were concerned about the idea one of our team members was working on for the demolition of the building. He made a box to catch the bars, with the intention the robot will push the box into place, move around to the other side of the model to pull out the valuable and push the red lever, then drag the box back into safety on its way back. He toppled the building many, many times testing different size boxes, and decided the best was dangerously close to the line of safety. If the robot doesn't get it perfectly placed, it will be straddling the line, and incur an immediate junk penalty. They were trying to determine what happens to the bars that land in it in that case. It is very confusing.

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                        • #13
                          Re: R14 - something it was transporting

                          Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                          The questions for that "You are not allowed to cause...." bullet in R12 are 1) What's the definition of "you"? and 2) how direct of a causal relationship is meant by the word "cause". I think (and this has been pointed out by a couple of people in other discussions; I'm sorry I don't remember who) that the word "you" in that statement means the team, not the robot. For the 2nd, can the robot do something on its own to cause something to leave Base? If so, how did that something get there legally?

                          In previous years there was a section of rules for people actions, and another for robot actions. Combining them like this does not, imo, bring clarity. Yes, I'm channeling previous years' rules, as I should not, but I don't see anything here that disallows what teams have been doing for years -- placing something in base and have the robot pick that up on its way through. Maybe that should be in Base instead of Safety like I said in my previous post, but the storage rules don't appear to forbid strategic placement within Safety. It's just my interpretation of that bullet in R12, but I think it's OK for teams to place something in Safety & have the robot use it without relaunch.
                          Allowing the placement of something in Base and then having the Robot pick it up on its way through (without a Restart/re-Launch) wasn't something I was aware of from previous years. Not being a Ref (aside from team practices and unofficial scrimmages), I'm sure I simply didn't witness enough matches, especially at the high end of the skill spectrum. I would agree that last year's rule ("You may not make any changes outside Base except by: ... a proper robot start. ...") is not substantially different in meaning from this year's ("You are not allowed to cause anything to leave or even extend out of Base except by Launching/re-Launching"). While there's just a bit of ambiguity in how far the meaning of 'cause' extends, if Refs in past years interpreted this to allow strategic hand placement of objects within Base for the Robot to interact with without Restarting/re-Launching, then I would agree that this year's rules don't change that. So, having now a better understanding of how Refs previously interpreted what is essentially the same rule, I would agree with you that strategic hand placement within Base is allowed.

                          However, if strategic hand placement within Safety (not within Base) is allowed, then what is the meaning of "You are not allowed to cause anything to leave or even extend out of Base except by Launching/re-Launching."?

                          Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                          If you use the word "Transport" to mean "any movement caused by the robot" then R14 is pretty clear. But if you define it (as I do) to require *intentional* movement you open up some other issues.
                          I do read 'Transport' to mean "any movement caused by the robot" simply because the concept of *intentional* movement seems to me to create even more difficulties. If the Robot knocks down the building, is it not intending to move the Bars (therefore Transporting them) from their starting positions to some (roughly determined) position nearby? Would the movement be intentional if it were to kick them precisely into the Sorter's west input tray, but not if it scatters them across the Field? I would heartily agree that 'Transport' is a very ambiguous word to use in what is really a rather critical rule.

                          Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                          The big concern for me is knocking the building from the east. Some of the Bars will go into Safety; others will straddle the line, and others will remain totally outside. If knocking the building down is transportation, we require the refs to pounce on all of the bars that are not completely on one side or the other of the Safety boundary. That's going to be really hard if the robot is still moving west. I think that's too hard (even if the robot pauses); I'd like to give the robot the chance to keep pushing to get everything Safe.
                          The way I'm planning to handle knocked-down bars from the demolition of the building (at practices/scrimmages, until I learn more from a rules update or a Minnesota Ref (or change my mind after learning more from the forum community)) is by invoking the second bullet of GP3. If there's not enough time for me to grab a bar straddling the Safety arc before the Robot grabs/sweeps/plows it and I'd be risking interfering with the Robot's movement, then it never came to rest for the purposes of R14. But, if the Robot knocks down the building and then turns and goes somewhere else, I'll take away the bars that are straddling the Safety arc.

                          Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                          If we go with your definition of "once it's in Safety it's stored and the robot can't interact with it", are we requiring the teams to move those Bars out of the way as the robot comes into Safety? What's the penalty for not doing that?
                          Just like if a Robot were to accidentally contact something the team has stored out on the Field and should have kept out of the Robot's way. If the contact has no effect on the outcome of the game, then no-harm/no-foul, and in any case there's no defined penalty for such an occurrence.
                          Last edited by CraigP; 09-27-2015, 11:58 PM. Reason: typo -- GP2 corrected to GP3

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                          • #14
                            Re: R14 - something it was transporting

                            Originally posted by CCVH View Post
                            If the robot doesn't get it perfectly placed, it will be straddling the line, and incur an immediate junk penalty. They were trying to determine what happens to the bars that land in it in that case.
                            If the Robot sets the box in place and then leaves it there, and the box is left straddling the Safety arc, then it will incur a Junk Penalty but will also be moved to bring it completely into Safety, so it won't be there to catch the bars.

                            (R14 -- "Partly in Safety: Take it completely into Safety + keep it + Junk Penalty ... ")

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                            • #15
                              Re: R14 - something it was transporting

                              Originally posted by CraigP View Post
                              Allowing the placement of something in Base and then having the Robot pick it up on its way through (without a Restart/re-Launch) wasn't something I was aware of from previous years. Not being a Ref (aside from team practices and unofficial scrimmages), I'm sure I simply didn't witness enough matches, especially at the high end of the skill spectrum. I would agree that last year's rule ("You may not make any changes outside Base except by: ... a proper robot start. ...") is not substantially different in meaning from this year's ("You are not allowed to cause anything to leave or even extend out of Base except by Launching/re-Launching"). While there's just a bit of ambiguity in how far the meaning of 'cause' extends, if Refs in past years interpreted this to allow strategic hand placement of objects within Base for the Robot to interact with without Restarting/re-Launching, then I would agree that this year's rules don't change that. So, having now a better understanding of how Refs previously interpreted what is essentially the same rule, I would agree with you that strategic hand placement within Base is allowed.

                              However, if strategic hand placement within Safety (not within Base) is allowed, then what is the meaning of "You are not allowed to cause anything to leave or even extend out of Base except by Launching/re-Launching."?
                              The wording between last year and this year is basically the same, except that last year's rule was inside a section specifically talking about human actions. Since there is no such section this year it is dangerous to assume they mean the same thing, but I suspect that's the intent. But at this point that suspicion isn't enough to make me comfortable calling it that way.

                              "Intentional" wasn't a very good word choice on my part. "Purposeful" might be a little better, but it's still not quite what I want. I can make a distinction between running into the building and driving into it with an attachment obviously designed to try and collect and/or direct the bars. I'm just not sure if there's enough of a difference to treat the two cases differently.
                              Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                              KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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