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  • Transport scoring question

    My wife (assistant coach) and I disagree on the scoring of the Transport Mission from M03. I say that a team can get 50(bin on truck) +60(bin east of track)=110 total points only if the truck with the yellow bin on is east of the truck track at the end of the game (ie. the truck is also east of the truck guide with yellow bin on it). She interprets the rule M03 to be the team earns 50 if the yellow bin was ever on the truck and 60 points more if the bin is dumped onto the mat east of the truck guide by the end of the game. Opinions?

  • #2
    Re: Transport scoring question

    The Mission requires that the condition is visible at the end of the match, so both conditions have to be visible at the end of the match so you`re right

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    • #3
      Re: Transport scoring question

      Close - there's no requirement for the truck to be east of the guide - just the entire yellow bin. Tino123 is correct.
      Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
      KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

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      • #4
        Re: Transport scoring question

        "Visible at the end of the match" - not "during" the match. Had this discussion with several people and they are evenly split--some thinking you can load the yellow bin on the truck, then dump it east of the truck guide and get 110 points. Careful reading of the wording leads me to think if you get the yellow bin on the truck you score 50, if you dump the bin off the truck and beyond the guide (easy to do once you've loaded it) you get 60 points, and if you can somehow get the yellow bin east of the guide and still on the truck, you get 110 points. Maybe an update will clarify it. Maybe not.

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        • #5
          Re: Transport scoring question

          Originally posted by nedcook View Post
          "Visible at the end of the match" - not "during" the match. Had this discussion with several people and they are evenly split--some thinking you can load the yellow bin on the truck, then dump it east of the truck guide and get 110 points. Careful reading of the wording leads me to think if you get the yellow bin on the truck you score 50, if you dump the bin off the truck and beyond the guide (easy to do once you've loaded it) you get 60 points, and if you can somehow get the yellow bin east of the guide and still on the truck, you get 110 points. Maybe an update will clarify it. Maybe not.
          D07 states when points are scored (either at end of match or during the match). So we need to find something with precedence (see GP05) over the body of the rules to clarify. The Missions section does have precedence, so let's look at M03. It clearly says "visible at the end of the match", so that's when the points for M03 are scored. Of course, an update could happen, but at this point I don't see what needs to be clarified.

          There was a mission last year that was scored during the match. But this year, every mission repeats those words. I guess Scott could have cut more words out of this year's rules if he'd specified a default in D07 and didn't have those 7 words repeated 12 times.
          Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
          KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Transport scoring question

            Originally posted by nedcook View Post
            "Visible at the end of the match" - not "during" the match. Had this discussion with several people and they are evenly split--some thinking you can load the yellow bin on the truck, then dump it east of the truck guide and get 110 points. Careful reading of the wording leads me to think if you get the yellow bin on the truck you score 50, if you dump the bin off the truck and beyond the guide (easy to do once you've loaded it) you get 60 points, and if you can somehow get the yellow bin east of the guide and still on the truck, you get 110 points. Maybe an update will clarify it. Maybe not.
            It's already as clear as it needs to be. Two scoring conditions are defined, both at the end of the match, and the rule even says "score one or both". That's as clear a "hidden freedom" as you're ever going to get in FLL.
            FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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            • #7
              Re: Transport scoring question

              I was working with my 6th grade team last night and they were stuck on figuring out how to score this mission. I took the truck with the bin on it, set it with the back wheels over the East wall so it was nose down and hanging partly off the table (short 2x3 walls on this table) but still supporting the bin and asked how many points that gets. Moving the truck away from the guide helped open their eyes and the "score one or both" language made sense to them. Suddenly they had tons of ideas for how they could score both.

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              • #8
                Re: Transport scoring question

                Originally posted by mkirkwood View Post
                I was working with my 6th grade team last night and they were stuck on figuring out how to score this mission. I took the truck with the bin on it, set it with the back wheels over the East wall so it was nose down and hanging partly off the table (short 2x3 walls on this table) but still supporting the bin and asked how many points that gets. Moving the truck away from the guide helped open their eyes and the "score one or both" language made sense to them. Suddenly they had tons of ideas for how they could score both.
                Every team and context is different, so this is not a direct reply to you - just a general highly opinionated statement to all readers. But to me that goes way further to just giving them the answer, over guiding to the techniques of discovering this for themselves. If in a given meeting a team is discussing this mission and they do discover there seems to be a challenge in how to score 'both', smirk and bite your tongue. Let them take that home with them, mull it over, sleep on it...and if they still don't get it, bite your tongue again and move on.

                The phrase "opened their eyes", was them 'seeing the answer'. And again, this is not intended to be a poking insult, just an observation based only on the words. True, maybe by baiting this hook a lot easier, it now enables them and gives an example of how to look at other missions with new eyes. So in a larger sense, it is certainly not the end of the world. But new coaches, read this and think how your own meetings progress. These kids already have years of traditional lecture/fact/memorize/regurgitate...allow FLL to be about discovery and self-empowerment.

                And yes, for full disclosure - I too look back and remember examples as a coach giving my own team too much of a hint. Pains me now to have robbed them of that, had I given them another day or so to work it themselves.

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                • #9
                  Re: Transport scoring question

                  I appreciate the sentiment, and agree that this is an important aspect of FLL. This is a good reminder to continuously reflect on what's the right way to be coaching at that time with that team. One of the biggest problems I encounter in my professional life is a lack of critical thinking skills which is one of the driving forces behind my support of FLL.

                  I understand that your comments are not a direct response to my actions, but I think it is useful to think through my thought process (if only for my own benefit). My action implicitly showed them the answer to what the rule meant by showing them that both conditions were physically possible, but by doing something absurd I did not show them the answer for how to use the rule. My thinking was exactly as you stated that it gives them an example of what "score one or both" and "if a detail isn't mentioned, it doesn't matter" mean. I think I would have been clearly over the line if I had said, "what if your robot could lift the truck" since that would give them a solution to this mission with no wider application. I could have let them chew on this longer, but I don't think it would be right to let them stay stuck and move on (I read the Coaches' Handbook as supporting me on this). Their realization triggered a stream of ideas for ways to solve the mission, and not nudging them past their problem understanding the rules would have robbed them of that discovery.

                  I fully agree with your point that FLL should be about discovery. The coach has a role in this. Too much coach involvement turns FLL into memorize/regurgitate (I inherited FLLers with this problem), but too little coach involvement can starve them of opportunities to discover and solve problems. Keeping this in mind can help guide decisions on how to interact with your team.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Transport scoring question

                    Good thoughts. And very correct, as in all things - balance is a key component.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Transport scoring question

                      Originally posted by mkirkwood View Post
                      I appreciate the sentiment, and agree that this is an important aspect of FLL. This is a good reminder to continuously reflect on what's the right way to be coaching at that time with that team. One of the biggest problems I encounter in my professional life is a lack of critical thinking skills which is one of the driving forces behind my support of FLL.

                      I understand that your comments are not a direct response to my actions, but I think it is useful to think through my thought process (if only for my own benefit). My action implicitly showed them the answer to what the rule meant by showing them that both conditions were physically possible, but by doing something absurd I did not show them the answer for how to use the rule. My thinking was exactly as you stated that it gives them an example of what "score one or both" and "if a detail isn't mentioned, it doesn't matter" mean. I think I would have been clearly over the line if I had said, "what if your robot could lift the truck" since that would give them a solution to this mission with no wider application. I could have let them chew on this longer, but I don't think it would be right to let them stay stuck and move on (I read the Coaches' Handbook as supporting me on this). Their realization triggered a stream of ideas for ways to solve the mission, and not nudging them past their problem understanding the rules would have robbed them of that discovery.

                      I fully agree with your point that FLL should be about discovery. The coach has a role in this. Too much coach involvement turns FLL into memorize/regurgitate (I inherited FLLers with this problem), but too little coach involvement can starve them of opportunities to discover and solve problems. Keeping this in mind can help guide decisions on how to interact with your team.
                      This is well stated and a sentiment (and thought process) I agree with.
                      Team members and coaches in North Carolina, direct your rules questions to referee@nc-fll.com

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