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Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

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  • Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

    Does the robot need to be in Safety at the end of the Match? D05 defines Equipment as everything you bring to the Match and D10 defined a robot. D09 defines a Penalty at the end of the Match as "each piece of Equipment still stranded completely outside Safety". I think that since D05 says equipment is EVERYTHING brought to the match and D09 says any stranded equipment incurs a penalty that the robot must be in or crossing the Safety line to avoid a penalty. My Assistant coach thinks since D10 defines a robot separately that it is not part of Equipment and therefore can be anywhere on the mat at the end of the game without incurring a penalty. Opinions?

  • #2
    Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

    My answer is you do get a junk penalty for leaving the robot outside safety at the end of match. D3 and D9 are pretty clear. But that does not mean the robot needs to be in safety at the end of the match. I would only leave the robot in safety if there were no points left to score.

    Taking a penalty is not a bad thing. Your robot or solution or run isn't bad because you get a penalty. Deciding to take or avoid a penalty is a strategy that is no different than deciding if you want to keep yellow bars or attempt recycling. This year the penalty is small (8 points) and the maximum number of penalties is few (4). If I was solving this game I'd give serious consideration to never having the robot return to base except to deliver cargo to safety. I'd pick it up as soon as it completes the mission objective and carry it back to base to save time. Go ahead and take away 32 points, I will use the extra seconds to score 200.

    This is not the "purist" view of how the robot should solve missions. In their world the robot should drive out onto the mat, activate field models, and return completely to safety, all neat and everything tied up with a pretty bow. Purists are fools. Only factory floor robots are clean and precise and do the the same task the same way over and over with amazing reliability. Those robots are booring and shouldn't be held up as the way robots are supposed to act. Today robots are going autonomous. They are getting dirty in the real world, making decisions on the fly and doing what it takes to get the job done. If this includes getting airlifted back to base, so be it.
    Last edited by Dean Hystad; 09-26-2015, 01:15 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

      I believe that the penalty is -16 points because the black bar goes from a positive 8 points for being in the original setup position to being -8 points for being "anywhere else". Teams need to consider this in their decision to take a penalty. It still may be worth it.

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      • #4
        Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

        I see nothing in the rules that requires a robot to come back to Safety at the end of a match. It's not mentioned; it must not be important. As for a penalty -- there's a footnote to R13 that covers this. No penalty.
        Last edited by someonewhobikes; 09-26-2015, 03:50 PM. Reason: Was in a hurry on a phone. Fleshing out the answer.
        Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
        KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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        • #5
          Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

          Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
          I see nothing in the rules that requires a robot to come back to Safety at the end of a match. It's not mentioned; it must not be important. As for a penalty -- there's a footnote to R13 that covers this. No penalty.
          Here is the footnote to R13:
          *LENIENCY: If there is no re-Launch allowed/intended, leave everything stopped in place, and there’s no Penalty or movement of anything. Your Match is considered finished. Use this leniency if your robot has no more to do, especially if it’s out of control, or stuck and straining its motors.

          Therefore, no, the robot does not need to be in safety at match end, and there is no penalty for leaving the robot on the field.

          As I read the rules concerning the junk penalty (part of D09), it concerns equipment the robot strands in the field. It does not concern the robot itself or equipment still attached to the robot.
          Last edited by timdavid; 09-26-2015, 04:06 PM.

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          • #6
            Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

            Originally posted by timdavid View Post
            As I read the rules concerning the junk penalty (part of D09), it concerns equipment the robot strands in the field. It does not concern the robot itself or equipment still attached to the robot.
            Except that Equipment is defined in D03 as "everything you bring to a Match for Mission-related activity." That certainly includes the robot. However, I don't see that as making D09 (which does seem to make a distinction) inconsistent -- when you interrupt the robot and it's not Completely In Safety, you get the same penalty as you do for stranding other Equipment partially in Safety. So I think it all comes out in the wash.

            Unfortunately, R13 gives no direction about what to do with a separate piece of Equipment that's being transported by the robot when it's Interrupted. Said Equipment (how many ever pieces) are A) still in contact with the robot (which B) is not Uninterrupted) so they're obviously not covered by R14. It's a hole that I didn't realize was there until I was typing the previous paragraph, unless I saw it earlier, found something that cleared it up, and have since forgotten what that something was.
            Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
            KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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            • #7
              Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

              Initially, I also wondered if a penalty would be assessed for a Robot not completely in Safety after 150 seconds. Was there a penalty previous years? I don't see a penalty in these rules.

              D09 Bullet 1 says "you Interrupting the Robot" but "Interruption" is "you interact with an Autonomous Robot" which you aren't doing during the Match. R13 leniency says you can pick up the robot with no penalty if the Match is done. Besides, after 150 seconds, you can't do anything to your points (plus or minus). Once the Ref gives you a score sheet, it's officially over even if it's mis-scored. So I guess, make sure you don't touch your Robot until you get your score.

              D09 Bullet 2 says a Junk Penalty is caused by "the Robot strands partly in Safety" or "equipment still stranded" but "Stranding" is when the "Robot loses contact with something" which can't happen when talking about the Robot itself.

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              • #8
                Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

                Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                R13 leniency says you can pick up the robot with no penalty if the Match is done. Besides, after 150 seconds, you can't do anything to your points (plus or minus). Once the Ref gives you a score sheet, it's officially over even if it's mis-scored. So I guess, make sure you don't touch your Robot until you get your score.
                R13 does not say to pick up the robot at the seems of the match. The footnote says If there is no re-Launch allowed/intended, leave everything stopped in place.... Also see R17. As for the scoresheet, it's not final until the team signs it; this is covered in R18.
                Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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                • #9
                  Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

                  Junk penalty wise, I'd say the critical point is the D09/R14 one. The robot cannot lose contact with itself and being transported by, and subsequently losing contact with, the robot is necessary for stranding which is necessary for the junk penalty.
                  Team members and coaches in North Carolina, direct your rules questions to [email protected]

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                  • #10
                    Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

                    Originally posted by SamLast View Post
                    Junk penalty wise, I'd say the critical point is the D09/R14 one. The robot cannot lose contact with itself and being transported by, and subsequently losing contact with, the robot is necessary for stranding which is necessary for the junk penalty.
                    But you don't even have to make that analysis...just look at R13's footnote, where it says clearly that there's no penalty for leaving the robot out at the end of the match.
                    Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                    KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

                      Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                      Initially, I also wondered if a penalty would be assessed for a Robot not completely in Safety after 150 seconds. Was there a penalty previous years? I don't see a penalty in these rules.
                      No, I don't recall a penalty in previous seasons (at least since "Power Puzzle") for the robot finishing the match outside of Base/Safety. The "Safety" concept itself is new this season. The "junk penalty" has only been around for a couple seasons.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

                        Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                        But you don't even have to make that analysis...just look at R13's footnote, where it says clearly that there's no penalty for leaving the robot out at the end of the match.
                        I would prefer to rule based on D09/R14 because R13 is talking specifically about touching the robot to turn it off and thus there is some ambiguity in whether the penalty exemption applies to only the touch penalty. There is 0 ambiguity in whether something can lose contact with itself.

                        Of course, the ruling is the same either way so which piece of text one prefers is pretty moot.
                        Team members and coaches in North Carolina, direct your rules questions to [email protected]

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                        • #13
                          Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

                          Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                          Except that Equipment is defined in D03 as "everything you bring to a Match for Mission-related activity." That certainly includes the robot. However, I don't see that as making D09 (which does seem to make a distinction) inconsistent -- when you interrupt the robot and it's not Completely In Safety, you get the same penalty as you do for stranding other Equipment partially in Safety. So I think it all comes out in the wash.

                          Unfortunately, R13 gives no direction about what to do with a separate piece of Equipment that's being transported by the robot when it's Interrupted. Said Equipment (how many ever pieces) are A) still in contact with the robot (which B) is not Uninterrupted) so they're obviously not covered by R14. It's a hole that I didn't realize was there until I was typing the previous paragraph, unless I saw it earlier, found something that cleared it up, and have since forgotten what that something was.
                          R13 applies only to Models the robot is transporting - it does not mention nor apply to Equipment the robot is also transporting.

                          Every match I have ever reffed allowed the team to turn their robot off during the match if the team had no more missions to accomplish. No penalty. It saves the robot's batteries, and saves the Ref time because they can score the match and have a few extra moments to chat with the team.

                          The match is over when the 2:30 has elapsed. You can't get a penalty for touching the robot after the time is over. Don't pick it up, or you'll earn a scowl from the referee, but you won't get a penalty in any case.
                          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

                            Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
                            R13 applies only to Models the robot is transporting - it does not mention nor apply to Equipment the robot is also transporting.
                            That's exactly my point. I don't see a rule that describes what happens to non-attached equipment that is being transported by the robot when the robot is interrupted.
                            Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                            KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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                            • #15
                              Re: Does robot need to be in Safety at match end?

                              Originally posted by someonewhobikes View Post
                              That's exactly my point. I don't see a rule that describes what happens to non-attached equipment that is being transported by the robot when the robot is interrupted.
                              I'm not sure how the logical state of being "non-attached equipment" and "being transported by the robot" can occur.

                              I'm starting to fall into the camp of those who say that just providing (or allowing) movement of an object is not sufficient to meet the definition of "transporting". For example, a self-propelled device could be said to be transporting itself.

                              If the robot launches from Base and sets free some independent equipment, it's no longer "something the robot was transporting", so R14 doesn't apply.

                              Until there is an update, of course.

                              The more I read this set of rules, I get the feeling that the purpose of the R14 and the area of Safety exclusive of Base (the annular arc between the two curves) is to create a gap between the Robot's starting position (inside Base) and Equipment the robot plans to interact with - as such Equipment must be completely outside Safety to avoid both the immediate Junk penalty AND being moved completely inside Base. Doing this would undo its strategic placement by the robot.

                              Moving Equipment "completely into Safety" happens immediately upon the Equipment being "stranded", without regard to the robot being Interrupted. Interrupting the robot only impacts Models it was carrying, under R13.

                              This really needs an update, because this logic leads to some undesirable side-effects, which invokes the unreliable "common sense" rule of GP2. Very little is less common than common sense. I am living proof.
                              FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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