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  • M01 suggested updates

    I've exchanged a couple e-mails with Scott regarding M01 and M04 so I figured I'd just post some suggestions to get your opinion for how M01 could be updated. The current text looks like this:
    Originally posted by Current M01 Text
    Green Bin containing at least one matching Yellow or Blue Bar, all from the other team, is completely in your Safety.
    • Value: 60 per bin in either safety… for each scoring bin in either safety, the other team gets the points too, and vice versa.
    Here's an option I'll call Proposal 1 with the changed texted highlighted.
    Originally posted by M01 Proposal 1
    Green Bin containing at least one matching Yellow or Blue Bar, all from the other team, is completely in your Field. Score any that apply.
    • Value: 60 Per Bin completely in either safety… for each scoring bin in either safety, the other team gets the points too, and vice versa.
    • Value: Per Bar (See M04)
    Arguably, Proposal 1 is just a more explicit statement of the most liberal interpretation of the current text. If no update is issued on M01, then I would strongly argue for this interpretation based on a literal reading of the current text. Proposal 1 would result in the following scores.
    • Their bin sitting on Your East Transfer is worth 0 points to You but 7/bar to Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your Field, it's worth 6 points/bar to You but 0 to Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your West Transfer Area, it's worth 7/bar to You but 0 to Them.
    • If You take their bin completely into Your Safety, it's worth 60 + 6/bar to Your score and worth 60 to Their score.


    Originally posted by M01 Proposal 2
    Green Bin containing at least one matching Yellow or Blue Bar, all from the other team, is partially or completely in your Field. Bins and Bars score independently.
    • Value: 60 Per Bin completely in either safety… for each scoring bin in either safety, the other team gets the points too, and vice versa.
    • Value: 0 Per Bar (See M04)
    Proposal 2 is what I think Scott intended but I don't think it matches the current text.
    • Their bin sitting on Your East Transfer is worth 0 points to You but 7/bar to Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your Field, it's worth 0 to both You and Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your Safety, it's worth exactly 60 to both You and Them.
    • Once the bars leave the transfer, there is no way to score using the bars.


    Originally posted by M01 Proposal 3
    Green Bin containing at least one matching Yellow or Blue Bar, all from the other team, is completely in your Field. Score only one.
    • Value: 60 Per Bin completely in either safety… for each scoring bin in either safety, the other team gets the points too, and vice versa.
    • Value: Per Bar (See M04)
    Finally, proposal 3 is a hybrid of the two that probably doesn't throw anybody's strategy out of whack.
    • Their bin sitting on Your East Transfer is worth 0 points to You but 7/bar to Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your Field, it's worth 6/bar to You and 0 to Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your West Transfer Area, it's worth 7/bar to You but 0 to Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your Safety, it's worth exactly 60 to both You and Them.


    There are some corresponding changes that should be made to M04. For example, I'd update the M04 Method Constraint to say "either Sorter's east chute" because "the Sorter" is ambiguous when there are two Sorters.

  • #2
    Re: M01 suggested updates

    I don't think M01 needs an update at all.
    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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    • #3
      Re: M01 suggested updates

      Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
      I don't think M01 needs an update at all.
      Then which way would you interpret it? I gave a few examples (bin on the transfer, in the field, in the west transfer area, and in safety) and a few ways to score it (0, 6/bar, 7/bar, 60/bin). What are you going to do?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: M01 suggested updates

        Based on the "if a detail isn't mentioned it doesn't matter" principle, M01 does not need to state that it does not allow the scoring of bars. It merely needs to not state that it does allow such scoring (which is currently the case.)

        Let's not rehash the conversation we had short time ago, though. I still hold that the game requires a distinction between models on your field at the start of the match and models not on your field at the start of the match (it requires this because the alternative breaks the game.) Thus, the only way scoring of a model not on your field at the start of a match is legal is if mission rules specifically allow it.

        M01 as written specifically allows scoring of bins and does not specifically allow scoring of bars. That is sufficient.

        M04, on the other hand needs an update as to the bounds of the West transfer area and whether the west transfer is completely in said area.
        Last edited by SamLast; 09-30-2015, 06:26 PM.
        Team members and coaches in North Carolina, direct your rules questions to referee@nc-fll.com

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        • #5
          Re: M01 suggested updates

          M01 and M04 are quite independent.
          M01 scores only the bins.
          M04 scores only the bars.

          Regarding M01: Each [bin with at least one bar] from Table A that is in the Safety area of Table B, then both teams get credit for this mission.
          The transfer areas have no impact on M01.
          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: M01 suggested updates

            OK, so Tom says all(?) bars are scored according to M04. So Tom would score it like this:
            • Their bin sitting on Your East Transfer is worth 0 points to You but 7/bar to Them.
            • At some point after the transfer(?), it's worth 6/bar to You but 0 to Them.
            • If You take Their bin completely into Your West Transfer Area, it's worth 7/bar to You but 0 to Them.
            • If You take their bin completely into Your Safety, it's worth 60 + 6/bar to Your score and worth 60 to Their score.

            Sam on the other hand says that Their bars are never worth any points because if they had any value, it would have been stated in M01. M04 does not apply to Their bars. So Sam would score it like this:
            • Their bin sitting on Your East Transfer is worth 0 points to You but 7/bar to Them.
            • If You take Their bin off Your East Transfer, it's worth 0 to both You and Them.
            • If You take Their bin completely into Your Safety, it's worth exactly 60 to both You and Them.

            Do I have that right? See, I think it would help immensely if M01 explicitly said, "score the bars per M04" or "score the bars as 0 points."

            Sam, you may be surprised to learn that Scott would not score it that way. Scott believes Their bars in Your West Transfer Area would be 7/bar under M04 Bullet 1 Dash 2.
            Originally posted by Scott
            I never even thought of that, and I suppose [William's] right, given how it's worded. I never clearly said what team's bin needs to end up in your west transfer.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: M01 suggested updates

              Not surprised. Scott admits he didn't foresee that possibility so it seems reasonable that he hasn't thought it through fully and realized the game breaking potential of that ruling. That's why I like GP2. It gives official sanction to what head refs have always had to do: what is necessary to make the game playable.

              It's worth noting that Scott actually gets confused, misremembers, or otherwise makes mistakes at a similar rate to the rest of us.

              EDIT: Thinking about it, your update to M01 to state that bars score 0 wouldn't change anything about the "take their bin and score it in your west transfer area" exploit you suggest because that involves scoring the bars under M04 so what M01 says about bars is irrelevant.

              Such an update would need to say something like "bars received through this mission cannot be scored."

              In fact, even that may not be enough. M01 is what lets you score points for bins in your safety. It isn't what lets you take the bin off the transfer (it never mentions the transfer) so if you take a bin from the transfer and don't bring it back to safety, I see no reason that any part of M01 should apply to what you do with that bin and its bars.

              I guess what you would need is an update to M04 saying "bars in a bin taken from your east transfer cannot be scored" or similar.

              EDIT the second, on the above mentioned exploit: That seems like it would fall under R16. You are negatively affecting the other team (they lose the 7pt/bar) in a way not described in a mission (M04 says nothing about costing the other team points and M01 is not relevant as previously discussed.)
              Last edited by SamLast; 09-30-2015, 08:24 PM.
              Team members and coaches in North Carolina, direct your rules questions to referee@nc-fll.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: M01 suggested updates

                For the sake of clarity, I think both M01 and M04 should be updated. M04 talks about bins and bars and how to score bars and refers to M01 for scoring the bin. Reflectively, I'd expect M01 to talk about bars and bins and how to score bins and refer to M04 for scoring bars. I know some people would consider it unnecessary but I believe it would help.

                Yes, I agree that writing "0 per bar" in M01 is not sufficient. M04 would also need to be updated to be consistent. Updating M04 would require more careful thought but something along the lines of "7 per bar which has not been transferred" and perhaps reinforcing that with "0 per bar which has been transferred". Although that would require defining the moment that a bar is considered to be "transferred".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: M01 suggested updates

                  Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                  For the sake of clarity, I think both M01 and M04 should be updated. M04 talks about bins and bars and how to score bars and refers to M01 for scoring the bin. Reflectively, I'd expect M01 to talk about bars and bins and how to score bins and refer to M04 for scoring bars. I know some people would consider it unnecessary but I believe it would help.

                  Yes, I agree that writing "0 per bar" in M01 is not sufficient. M04 would also need to be updated to be consistent. Updating M04 would require more careful thought but something along the lines of "7 per bar which has not been transferred" and perhaps reinforcing that with "0 per bar which has been transferred". Although that would require defining the moment that a bar is considered to be "transferred".
                  "Transferred" isn't more difficult to define in context than several of the other words we don't have specific definitions for. "...which has been removed from a transfer" would be a wordier but more precise option.

                  Of course, all of this still ends you up with 3 team coalitions scoring triple truck/yellow bin/ animals/ plastic bags/ etc sets since you've created a precedent that a mission has to specifically exclude scoring on other teams' tables or it can be so scored.
                  Team members and coaches in North Carolina, direct your rules questions to referee@nc-fll.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: M01 suggested updates

                    Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                    For the sake of clarity, I think both M01 and M04 should be updated.
                    Sorry, but as it is written now is much clearer for kids than your proposed wording changes. Yes, the proposed changes may aleviate some ambiguity, but not enough to justify an update. Remember, VERY few teams will run into this issue, and even when they do would it change their strategy?

                    Please check out the new official scoring sheets just released on the challenge website. The wording there actually may cover the need for this type of clarification update.

                    Just to be clear, I vote that no update is needed even if the scoring may not be optimally worded.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: M01 suggested updates

                      Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                      OK, so Tom says all(?) bars are scored according to M04. So Tom would score it like this:
                      • Their bin sitting on Your East Transfer is worth 0 points to You but 7/bar to Them.
                      • At some point after the transfer(?), it's worth 6/bar to You but 0 to Them.
                      • If You take Their bin completely into Your West Transfer Area, it's worth 7/bar to You but 0 to Them.
                      • If You take their bin completely into Your Safety, it's worth 60 + 6/bar to Your score and worth 60 to Their score.
                      I rather resent you assuming how I would score a mission.
                      One, I'm a ref, so I don't score missions at all. I document the condition of the table after the match is over.
                      Two, you presume I feel that Team A can score points using bars that started the match on Team B's side of the table pair. I have never said this.
                      Last edited by Tom Mosher; 10-01-2015, 04:25 PM.
                      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: M01 suggested updates

                        Originally posted by educatedrobot View Post
                        Please check out the new official scoring sheets just released on the challenge website. The wording there actually may cover the need for this type of clarification update.
                        Scoresheets confirm that only 15 yellow and blue bars can be scored. That's how many are on the table at setup.
                        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: M01 suggested updates

                          Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
                          I rather resent you assuming how I would score a mission.
                          I apologize. It was not my intent to assume how you would score anything which is why I put the question mark after "all(?)" and ended my analysis with "Do I have that right?" I was trying to clarify what you meant by, "M04 scores only the bars." Do you mean all bars or what?

                          I am neither a ref or a judge but I'd still like to know how people involved in this game would interpret the rules.

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                          • #14
                            Re: M01 suggested updates

                            Originally posted by educatedrobot View Post
                            Remember, VERY few teams will run into this issue
                            I disagree. Any team that receives a bin with one bar and takes it to safety will score what? 60 points or 66 points? Why? Scott and I both think that placing the bin into the West Transfer Area would be worth 7 points. So why wouldn't the bin be worth 6 points anywhere on the table and worth 66 points in Safety?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: M01 suggested updates

                              Originally posted by WilliamFrantz View Post
                              I disagree. Any team that receives a bin with one bar and takes it to safety will score what? 60 points or 66 points? Why? Scott and I both think that placing the bin into the West Transfer Area would be worth 7 points. So why wouldn't the bin be worth 6 points anywhere on the table and worth 66 points in Safety?
                              An update is required before this question can be answered definitively. And I agree that very few teams will encounter this situation, as the mission is very difficult and the payoff is very low for the time required.
                              FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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