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  • Suggested updates for M04

    I'd figured tackling M01 would be easier than M04 but some people believe M01 is fine as-is and all unanswered questions could be addressed by updating M04. So, how would you update M04?

    The current text of the first bullet looks like this:
    Originally posted by Current M04 Bullet 1
    Yellow/blue bars are in their matching green bin and the bin (bins score independently)…
    • *Value: 60 Per Bin (See M01 on page 23) is completely in the other team’s Safety, by way of your West Transfer.*
    • Value: 7 Per Bar is completely in your West Transfer Area and/or completely on your West Transfer.
    • *Value: 6 Per Bar was never completely in your West Transfer Area (all “Areas” are defined below).*
    *Method Constraint: These require sequence/path as described, in addition to final positions.
    Here's an option I'll call Proposal 1 with the changed texted highlighted.

    Originally posted by M04 Proposal 1
    Any yellow/blue bars are in their matching green bin by way of any Sorter (score all that apply)
    • Value: Per Bin (See M01) for each bin completely in the other team’s Safety, by way of a Transfer.
    • Value: 7 Per Bar in each matching bin where the bin is completely in your West Transfer Area and/or completely on your West Transfer.
    • Value: 6 Per Bar in each matching bin where the bin is completely in your Field and the bin is not completely in your West Transfer Area.
    Arguably, this scores exactly the way the most liberal interpretation of the current text would score except for ensuring all conditions are mutually exclusive. Proposal 1 would result in the following scores.
    • Their bin sitting on Your East Transfer is worth 0 points to You but 7/bar to Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your Field, it's worth 6/bar to You but 0 to Them.
    • If You take Their bin into Your West Transfer Area, it's worth 7/bar to You but 0 to Them.
    • If You take their bin completely into Your Safety, it's worth 60 to Them and 60 + 6/bar to You.
    • Your bin sitting anywhere in your Field is worth 6/bar.
    • If you take Your bin into the West Transfer Area, it's worth 7/bar.
    • If they take Your bin into Their Field, it's worth 0 to You but 6/bar to Them.
    • If they take Your bin into Their Safety, it's worth 60 to You and 60+6/bar to Them.


    Originally posted by M04 Proposal 2
    Your yellow/blue bars are in your matching green bin by way of your Sorter. (score only one)
    • Value: 60 Per Bin for each bin completely in the other team’s Safety, by way of your West Transfer.
    • Value: 7 Per Bar in each matching bin where the bin is completely in your West Transfer Area or on your West Transfer or in the other team's Field
    • Value: 6 Per Bar in each matching bin

    Yellow/blue bars are in matching green bins received from the other team. (score only one)
    • Value: Per Bin (see M01) for each bin completely in your Safety.
    • Value: 7 Per Bar in each matching bin where the bin is completely in your Field
    I feel like this is a fairly major re-write but it's my favorite. The scores always go up (never down) as bins progress from the Sorter, to the Transfer, to the opposite Safety. Cooperative scoring is always equal and mutual. Proposal 1 would result in the following scores.
    • Their bin sitting on Your East Transfer is worth 0 points to You but 7/bar to Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your Field, it's worth 7/bar to both You and Them. (eliminates the 0 point scenario)
    • If You take their bin completely into Your Safety, it's worth 60 points to both You and Them.
    • Your bin sitting anywhere in your Field is worth 6/bar.
    • If you take Your bin into the West Transfer Area, it's worth 7/bar.
    • If they take Your bin into Their Field, it's worth 7/bar to both You and Them.
    • If they take Your bin into Their Safety, it's worth 60 points to both You and Them.


    Originally posted by M04 Proposal 3
    Any yellow/blue bars are in their matching green bin by way of any Sorter (score all that apply)
    • Value: Per Bin (See M01) for each bin completely in the other team’s Safety, by way of a Transfer.
    • Value: 1 Per Bar in each matching bin where the bin has not been transferred but the bin is completely in your West Transfer Area and/or completely on your West Transfer.
    • Value: 6 Per Bar in each matching bin where the bin is completely in your Field and/or completely on your West Transfer but the bin has not been transferred
    This is getting rather convoluted but I assume some people would interpret the current text to score this way. Proposal 3 would result in the following scores.
    • Their bin sitting on Your East Transfer is worth 0 points to You but 7/bar to Them.
    • If You take Their bin completely into Your Field, it's worth 0 to both You and Them.
    • If You take Their bin into Your West Transfer Area, it's still worth 0 to both You and Them.
    • If You take their bin completely into Your Safety, it's worth 60 to both You and Them.
    • Your bin sitting anywhere in your Field is worth 6/bar.
    • If you take Your bin into the West Transfer Area, it's worth 7/bar.
    • If they take Your bin into Their Field, it's worth 0 to both You and Them.
    • If they take Your bin into Their Safety, it's worth 60 to both You and Them.

  • #2
    Re: Suggested updates for M04

    I would add a definition of the two transfer areas to the rules (possibly to M04, possibly somewhere else) and would define those areas as the area defined by the white lines and the inside edges of the table walls plus the transfer models (leave out the part about the transfer models if the Schrodinger's points exploit is intended.)

    Other than that, the current text works fine.

    EDIT: I notice a bunch of superfluous text in both your proposed update posts. The rules are going for brevity this season so if something has been stated at one point in mission rules there is no need to restate it later.

    So all additions of "for each bin" and "in each matching bin" in your updates can be removed.
    Last edited by SamLast; 10-01-2015, 09:20 PM.
    Team members and coaches in North Carolina, direct your rules questions to referee@nc-fll.com

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    • #3
      Re: Suggested updates for M04

      Originally posted by SamLast View Post
      I would add a definition of the two transfer areas to the rules (possibly to M04, possibly somewhere else) and would define those areas as the area defined by the white lines and the inside edges of the table walls plus the transfer models (leave out the part about the transfer models if the Schrodinger's points exploit is intended.)

      Other than that, the current text works fine.
      The transfer areas can easily be defined by reworking the diagram on the last page - which needs rework anyway to fix the east/west errors in the first release of the rules.

      Given that the scoresheet limits scoring to 15 yellow and blue bars it should now be obvious that the intent was never to score points for bars that didn't start on your side of the field. So I agree with Sam - the current text works.
      Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
      KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

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      • #4
        Re: Suggested updates for M04

        It's pretty clear what the intention of the M01 and M04 missions was:
        a) Sort some bars, get some points (6 for blue/yellow, 3 for black)
        b) Do something with the sorted bars (move bins out of the sorter and into the transfer area), get a bit more points (7 for blue/yellow).
        c) Get the other team to accept your bins, everyone benefits if successful.

        If a team attempts more than that, I will be full of admiration and a healthy dose of "benefit of the doubt".

        The refs have about 30 seconds at the table to make decisions before the event schedule starts to back-up into the hallway, so we're not going to have a legal hearing regarding rule semantic with the team members.

        Frankly, if you're a rookie team, there's a very good strategic argument for ignoring any mission that has to do with bars (especially black ones) and sorting, and focus your 2.5 minutes on all the other missions that are available via simple navigation and easy attachments - M03, M05, M06, M07, M08, and M09.
        Last edited by Tom Mosher; 10-02-2015, 02:41 PM.
        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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