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Slingshot Suspended in Mid Air Over Target?

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  • Slingshot Suspended in Mid Air Over Target?

    For some missions (pipe replacement for example), the rules say the model has to be touching the mat. The slingshot mission doesn't say that. So, if the slingshot is on a platform suspended two inches above the target, is that going to count? How are the refs going to rule on that?

  • #2
    Yes, that would count. The rule doesn't mention touching the mat - it just says "completely in its target". A target is a volume, not just the surface area.
    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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    • #3
      Note also: such a platform does not have to be "completely in", just the Slingshot model itself.
      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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      • #4
        Thank you!

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        • #5
          concur

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          • #6
            Doesn't D10 come into play here? "The process of being Transported ends when the thing being transported is no longer in contact with whatever was transporting it."

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            • #7
              How is "transported" involved in the discussion?

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              • #8
                M17 is a "moving" mission. D10 says that when something is moved it is being transported.

                It could be argued that D10 says the process of moving the slingshot into its target is not complete until the slingshot is not touching the thing that moved it there.

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                • #9
                  Where does it say that "transported" items cannot score? I don't see that anywhere in the rules. The only time the rules talk about an object being transported or an object at rest is what do you do when the robot is interrupted.

                  Nor do I see anything that says a mission must be "completed" for it to score. Completed has nothing to do with mission scoring at all. As far as I can tell the slingshot scores if it is completely in the target area when time expires. If it moves out of the target area afterward it still scores. If it isn't in the target area when time expires but is in the target area when it comes to rest it doesn't score.

                  The way I read the rules for the slingshot mission you would score if you place it on your robot and park (or glide through in a very timely manner) the robot in the target area.
                  Last edited by Dean Hystad; 10-27-2017, 11:30 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Fair enough! Thanks.

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                    • #11
                      Dean, if what you say is correct, then why does the slingshot even have to be left over the black box by expiration time? The rules don't define what "move" means. Can't I just hold the slingshot over its target for a second, then drive away? This could apply to any 'move' mission.

                      At some point I wonder how much stretching the rules stays in the spirit of the game.

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                      • #12
                        The mission text has the words "completely in its target" underlined. That means that the referee has to be able to see it at the end of the match.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mageus View Post
                          Dean, if what you say is correct, then why does the slingshot even have to be left over the black box by expiration time? The rules don't define what "move" means. Can't I just hold the slingshot over its target for a second, then drive away? This could apply to any 'move' mission.

                          At some point I wonder how much stretching the rules stays in the spirit of the game.
                          Because for this mission, and every other mission this season, the only thing that matters is the condition of the table at the end of the match. Not the condition of the table 35 seconds into the match or the condition of the table 35 seconds after the end of the match. I don't think it is a good idea to plan on a moving object being in a specific area at a specific time, but I see teams do all kinds of goofy things.

                          I don't understand the emphasis on "move". I've never heard "move mission" used to describe a category of missions before. Many mission descriptions contain the word "the", are they "the missions". Move is not an important word. "Transport" is an important word, but it only applies to interruptions.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mageus View Post
                            Dean, if what you say is correct, then why does the slingshot even have to be left over the black box by expiration time?
                            Because there's underlining in the M17 mission rule, so "completely in" is an end-of-match condition.

                            Originally posted by mageus View Post
                            At some point I wonder how much stretching the rules stays in the spirit of the game.
                            I suggest you search here for Dean's excellent "spirit of the game" post. Sorry I can't provide you with a link but that's more complex than I'm willing to try on a phone - I don't want to lose what I've already laboriously typed.

                            Originally posted by Dean Hystad View Post

                            Because for this mission, and every other mission this season, the only thing that matters is the condition of the table at the end of the match.
                            ....
                            I agree with most of Dean's post, but not *all* missions this year are scored based on end-of-match conditions.
                            * M02 doesn't have any underlined text at all, and must be scored during the match.
                            * M06 does have underlining but it's poorly worded - the "condition" is a verb ("eject") and scoring is dependent on a specific method that must be observed by the ref. In my opinion M06 should be scored during the match.
                            * M04 is also confusingly worded, but at least there the verb ("comes") isn't underlined, so I think it could be considered as an end-of-match condition. But for maximum GP3 compatibility I'm teaching my region's refs to score it during the match. If the rain cloud gets destroyed 30 seconds *after* the mission was completed I don't want the kids to not get credit.
                            Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                            KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at kcfllref@gmail.com

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                            • #15
                              Question regarding Minnesota interpretation of slingshot scoring:

                              Our team delivers the slingshot to the target area within a crate (a floor with 4 short sides). We participated in a mock tournament this morning and our team was told that to score the slingshot the bottom of it had to be touching the mat. When we followed up with the head referee he stated this was per instructions given from High Tech Kids (the organization that runs FLL in Minnesota and does the referee training).

                              Has anyone else in Minnesota heard this?

                              I wonder if they are basing this on the 'No' example (page 25) where the slingshot is out of the target area BUT also tilted (not completely touching the mat).

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