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  • M04 - crater crossing

    Ok, so what's an "agent-craft"?

  • #2
    I think it is something that your robot releases, perhaps using potential energy from something other than a motor.
    Norfolk, Virginia, USA
    FLL Coach and Regional Tournament Head judge since 2014

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    • #3
      Originally posted by SkipMorrow View Post
      I think it is something that your robot releases, perhaps using potential energy from something other than a motor.
      I'd expect a lot more details from FIRST given their usual attention to detail. Is an agent-craft connected to/controlled by/operated by/powered by/supported by the robot, or is it operating and moving independently? Is ground contact required? Is the craft allowed to have its own sensors/motors/brick? I'm just saying they're introducing what seems to be a totally new concept, and there is a left to interpretation.

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      • #4
        The "Simply Speaking" text is not a rule, it is just general conversation. "agent-craft" means "agent or craft". The "Technically Speaking" text of the mission rule allows the mission to be accomplished by any of your team's official Equipment (not limited to just the Robot itself).

        The word "equipment" should have been capitalized (as it was in M01), because it refers to the definition of Equipment (Rule D02).
        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
          The "Simply Speaking" text is not a rule, it is just general conversation. "agent-craft" means "agent or craft". The "Technically Speaking" text of the mission rule allows the mission to be accomplished by any of your team's official Equipment (not limited to just the Robot itself).

          The word "equipment" should have been capitalized (as it was in M01), because it refers to the definition of Equipment (Rule D02).
          Yes, that would've helped somewhat. Still, if your agent/craft is connected to your robot via wires, beams, axles, etc, how do you judge whether it has crossed the crater model "completely"? Could I attach two connected 15x1 beams to my robot and call the first one an "agent" if it knocks down the gate and is completely on the other side of it?

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          • #6
            That's an interesting question.

            Under D04, anything that is firmly attached ("not intended to separate except by hand") to the Controller is part of the Robot. Personally I do not think wires have any special status just because they are flexible - the wire connectors are what would be "not intended to separate".

            And any beams that are attached to the robot are part of the Robot.

            Even if you had some remote device connected to the controller by wires, the mission rule about weight-bearing features would (probably) still apply to the robot's main drive wheels.







            FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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            • #7
              Agree, a tethered item - is still part of the D04 robot regardless of the tether material. Therefore the "robot" and all its weight bearing features that would then also need to cross.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by dna1990 View Post
                Agree, a tethered item - is still part of the D04 robot regardless of the tether material. Therefore the "robot" and all its weight bearing features that would then also need to cross.
                A complicating factor is that the mission rule doesn't refer to the Robot, it refers to the "eight-bearing features of the crossing equipment", with a lower-case 'e'. It is unclear whether that refers to the whole Robot, or only to the LEGO parts that actually do the crossing.
                FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post

                  A complicating factor is that the mission rule doesn't refer to the Robot, it refers to the "eight-bearing features of the crossing equipment", with a lower-case 'e'. It is unclear whether that refers to the whole Robot, or only to the LEGO parts that actually do the crossing.
                  Doesn't matter, if there is a tether. If "connected", then the whole thing is one thing - and all of its weight bearing features must cross.

                  But besides, I don't think upper/lower case are required or meaningful (to me). Equipment is equipment, and is all the D03 items a team uses. Or do you mean that a team uses a mission model (not their equipment) to be the agent craft?

                  Bottom line, yes - it seems obvious the "intent" is to have teams "move over the craters in direct contact with the craters" with some LEGO pieces. But agree, that the intent is not relevant and the exact text we have leaves room for trying to find words that would allow something much less to fulfill the objective.

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                  • #10
                    The mission does not require that the "Robot" cross the crater. M04 requires that all the weight bearing equipment crosses the crater. This would seem to allow open the possibility of a mini-me vehicle or agent-craft leaving the Robot and crossing the gate. It the agent-craft were tethered, it would still be part of the crossing equipment and all the weight bearing equipment would not cross. It seems that if a Robot sends out a craft that is not connected, and that craft crosses the gate, the mission requirements are satisfied.
                    FLL coach Trash Trek on, State 4x, World 2x, ref, judge advisor.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DJR View Post
                      The mission does not require that the "Robot" cross the crater. M04 requires that all the weight bearing equipment crosses the crater. This would seem to allow open the possibility of a mini-me vehicle or agent-craft leaving the Robot and crossing the gate. It the agent-craft were tethered, it would still be part of the crossing equipment and all the weight bearing equipment would not cross. It seems that if a Robot sends out a craft that is not connected, and that craft crosses the gate, the mission requirements are satisfied.
                      I agree with your statements about using not-connected equipment.

                      But my mind is not settled regarding tethered equipment.
                      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                      • #12
                        is an agent craft required to have weight-bearing features? and are those features required to come/stay in contact with that mat and/or the model while it's crossing the Crater? Purely hypothetically, couldn't the robot shoot a projectile that would knock down the gate and land on the other side of it?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ae5880 View Post
                          is an agent craft required to have weight-bearing features? and are those features required to come/stay in contact with that mat and/or the model while it's crossing the Crater? Purely hypothetically, couldn't the robot shoot a projectile that would knock down the gate and land on the other side of it?
                          There are many potential strategies. Some may be legal, some may be not. Absent any guidance from FIRST, that's up for the team and the referee at their match to agree on.
                          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                          • #14
                            I just asked FIRST for a clarification. Another question in my mind: if the robot is carrying the craft so that it is intended to separate, at what point does the separation have to occur - before/after/while crossing?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ae5880 View Post
                              if the robot is carrying the craft so that it is intended to separate, at what point does the separation have to occur - before/after/while crossing?
                              Conceptually, if the agent-craft is "independent" by the time it begins crossing the Craters, then I would think that a team would have a strong argument that it would be okay for scoring, even if the robot were to start following it onto the Craters and get stuck there (with Benefit of the Doubt).

                              In my thoughts, if a craft was still being Transported by the Robot when it started crossing the Craters, then I would need to be convinced why the Robot was not part of the crossing equipment, since it was being used during the crossing.
                              Steve Scherr
                              Referee and Judge, Virginia-DC, Maryland, and Ohio
                              FLL Global Head Referee

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