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M12 Satellite Orbits, definition of "above" the outer orbit

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  • M12 Satellite Orbits, definition of "above" the outer orbit

    Looking at M12 (the Satellite Orbit mission), it appears that there's no definition of what "above" the orbit means (satellites must be "on or above" the outer orbit). So what's to say that 3 inches is above the orbit but 3 feet isn't? For that matter, if the satellites never leave base, are they technically "above" the outer orbit? Space extends in all directions from the planet, therefore "above" should as well.

    It seems to me that these may be 16 'free' points for any team that's willing to argue for them either without the 2 satellites in base ever being moved, or by just having them slid onto the mat so they're just outside base. What am I missing here?

  • #2
    The "above" means in the vertical (from the mat), not the from the planet on the mat. They want a part of the satellite to be between the lines when the ref looks straight down at the lines. The on or above means they could, technically be held by the robot and not on the mat, as long as they are "above" the lines.

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    • #3
      In the launch video, https://youtu.be/vIP5QwA7s2Y they explained that some part of the satellite must be touching the outer most orbit lines or above the lines, toward the ceiling. See the video at about 32 minutes.
      I expect that there will be an update on this. Under the rules, yes, as you point out, they start above the orbit if your frame of reference is the planet to base. But, if you think "above" meaning up to the ceiling from the mat, this means that they must be on or over the two outer lines. I expect that there may be an update stating that the satellites must be on or above the lines, meaning up towards the ceiling from the mat, not up from the planet to base.
      FLL coach Trash Trek on, State 4x, World 2x, state ref, state judge.

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      • #4
        Most importantly, M12 talks about being on or above the area between the two lines of the Outer Orbit. I think that that it is clear that Satellites in Base are not between the two lines of the Outer Orbit.

        Now some GP2--Interpretation comments from a Referee's viewpoint--think out of the box, but don't be extreme in trying to assign extra meaning to what's written.

        If a detail isn't mentioned, then it doesn't matter. -- Yes, there's no important difference between 3 inches above and 3 feet above, other than one is harder to be precise about when you observe it.

        Robot Game text means exactly and only what it plainly says.
        -- just because an illustration looks like something (a planet), and we know how it (space around the planet) behaves in real life, doesn't mean anything to the Robot Game. The Field is a flat, illustrated Mat with three-dimensional Models on it, and we shouldn't assume anything else about it, except as stated in the game documents.

        The word "above" is not given a game definition in the Rules, so, by GP2, we use its common conversational meaning.
        There is a commonly-understood difference between "higher than" and "above."
        • Mount Everest is higher than the Taj Mahal
        • Mount Everest is not above the Taj Mahal
        D07--Base shows some examples of what Completely In and Partially In are for objects that are on or above an area.
        Steve Scherr
        Referee and Judge, Virginia-DC, Maryland, and Ohio
        FLL Global Head Referee

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Suzann1701 View Post
          Looking at M12 (the Satellite Orbit mission), it appears that there's no definition of what "above" the orbit means (satellites must be "on or above" the outer orbit). So what's to say that 3 inches is above the orbit but 3 feet isn't? For that matter, if the satellites never leave base, are they technically "above" the outer orbit? Space extends in all directions from the planet, therefore "above" should as well.

          It seems to me that these may be 16 'free' points for any team that's willing to argue for them either without the 2 satellites in base ever being moved, or by just having them slid onto the mat so they're just outside base. What am I missing here?
          "Above" means vertical extension. Base is not between the orbit lines. No height limit is mentioned, so "it doesn't matter".
          FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DJR View Post
            In the launch video, https://youtu.be/vIP5QwA7s2Y they explained that some part of the satellite must be touching the outer most orbit lines or above the lines, toward the ceiling. See the video at about 32 minutes.
            In the video Mike says "in or above" the outer orbit lines - nothing about touching.

            Alan


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