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  • M02 solar panel, tilt other teams?

    While reading the rules today we noticed that they say that you are not allowed to negatively impact the other team. With respect to the solar panel mission, one team member pointed out that if we tilted their solar panel for them it would actually help them get extra points in addition to getting us extra points for having both panels tip the same direction. The scenario would be either we just tip ours and it's 18 points only for us, we tip ours and theirs and it's 40 points for us and 22 points for them, or we each do our own and its 18 points each.

    Is there any reason we couldn't tilt the other team solar panel for them? I don't see this specifically prohibited in the interference rule, and it would positively affect them. For some reason I seem to remember a rule about not extending the robot past the walls of the game board, but I can't seem to find it this year.

  • #2
    The mission rule has higher priority than the game rules.
    The mission is designed so that teams can modify the position of both panels.
    Though this might alter the other team's score, this is not a negative impact under the rules.
    FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by amy.eddy View Post
      I seem to remember a rule about not extending the robot past the walls of the game board, but I can't seem to find it this year.
      There is no rule about not extending beyond the field border walls, except at Launch with regard to the walls around Base.

      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Tom Mosher View Post
        Thanks for the help!

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        • #5
          I'm still struggling with the idea of manipulating the other teams mission model and not a fan of it. There are situations where it could have a negative effect on the other team.

          Situation No. 1 - your team, home team, tilts the other team's panel toward the other team's table. You team then fails to tilt its own panel toward the other side and it remains in the neutral position. The other team attempt to tilt the panel toward your table but, only returns it to the neutral position because it was already tilted toward the other team. 0 points each team. If you had left the other team's panel alone and they tilted it toward your table and you failed on your panel. The other team 18 points, your team 0.

          Situation No. 2. - the other team tilts its panel toward your table. 18 points if nothing else happens. You tilt your panel toward the other table. 18 points both teams if nothing else happens. You attempt but fail to tilt the other teams panel toward their table and return it to the neutral position. 18 points your team, 0 points for the other team and you took 18 points away from them.

          Situation No. 3. - Your team pushes both panels to the other side. 40 for you, 22 for the other team. The other team pushes only your panel neutral or back to your side and fails to tilt its panel to your side. 0 both teams.

          There are other variations where both teams attempt to tilt the panel to the other side but, fail in one respect or another but, I'm not doing the mental gymnastics to figure them all out.

          R16 - INTERFERENCE
          FLL coach Trash Trek on, State 4x, World 2x, ref, judge advisor.

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          • #6
            DJR,
            Our team came up with similar scenarios. We decided, in the spirit of Coopertition, not to affect the other team if we could help it. Our strategy:
            - If the other team moves their panel, fair game to move our panel only.
            - If the other team hasn't moved their panel near the end of the run, fair game to move both panels.
            - We will run Solar Panel last, and have several program options depending on the scenario.

            It will be fun to watch two robots fighting to move the same solar panel.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by DJR View Post
              I'm still struggling with the idea of manipulating the other teams mission model and not a fan of it. There are situations where it could have a negative effect on the other team.

              Situation No. 1 - your team, home team, tilts the other team's panel toward the other team's table. You team then fails to tilt its own panel toward the other side and it remains in the neutral position. The other team attempt to tilt the panel toward your table but, only returns it to the neutral position because it was already tilted toward the other team. 0 points each team. If you had left the other team's panel alone and they tilted it toward your table and you failed on your panel. The other team 18 points, your team 0.

              Situation No. 2. - the other team tilts its panel toward your table. 18 points if nothing else happens. You tilt your panel toward the other table. 18 points both teams if nothing else happens. You attempt but fail to tilt the other teams panel toward their table and return it to the neutral position. 18 points your team, 0 points for the other team and you took 18 points away from them.

              Situation No. 3. - Your team pushes both panels to the other side. 40 for you, 22 for the other team. The other team pushes only your panel neutral or back to your side and fails to tilt its panel to your side. 0 both teams.

              There are other variations where both teams attempt to tilt the panel to the other side but, fail in one respect or another but, I'm not doing the mental gymnastics to figure them all out.

              R16 - INTERFERENCE
              Rule GP5 says that mission rules have higher priority than robot game rules. And R16 includes "... except as described in a Mission".

              All of the situations you describe are allowed under the mission rule. So by definition, they cannot be considered "R16 - Interference".

              I totally agree that M02 could have been written with more clarity (such as by not implying that either team "owns" either panel).


              FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by mageus View Post
                DJR,
                Our team came up with similar scenarios. We decided, in the spirit of Coopertition, not to affect the other team if we could help it. Our strategy:
                - If the other team moves their panel, fair game to move our panel only.
                - If the other team hasn't moved their panel near the end of the run, fair game to move both panels.
                - We will run Solar Panel last, and have several program options depending on the scenario.

                It will be fun to watch two robots fighting to move the same solar panel.

                I think the goal is for the teams to communicate and cooperate.
                FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                • #9
                  The point of the center mission is to encourage communication and Coopertition!
                  SC Head Referee & Referee @ World Festival

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                  • #10
                    The purpose of the mission is to provide a challenge for the team to solve. That solution may involve communication with other teams, quiet observation or maybe even trickery. None of these are "in the spirit of FLL" or "against the spirit of FLL" as long as you follow the rules and treat all teams with respect. Nothing is more fun at a tournament than seeing missions solved in a particularly clever or ingenious way. If you limit your communication with other teams to deciding how to solve the shared mission you are missing the point of coopertition and missing out on the best part of FLL.
                    Last edited by Dean Hystad; 09-08-2018, 09:06 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Related question - the team wants to leave something in place that could potentially prevent another team from tilting the solar panel after our team has tilted it. I mentioned rule R16 (interference) and the team's response was that they'd only tilt our panel depending on learning what the other team is doing. Is their interpretation correct that it's interference only if the other team attempts to tilt their panel and their tool prevents it? What if the tool actually does interfere? It seems counter to cooperation but, my reading of the rules is that the other team would be awarded the 40 pts and our team would get 18 (and not the 4 extra).
                      Last edited by dat; 09-10-2018, 03:43 PM. Reason: added q's on points

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                      • #12
                        the team wants to leave something in place that could potentially prevent another team from tilting the solar panel after our team has tilted it
                        For an Interference ruling, first a team must attempt a mission, and also fail due to illegal action by the other team (or its robot).

                        Blocking a mission model so that the other team cannot move it risks an Interference ruling by the referee. There is a lot of risk in basing your strategy on how the referee might rule.

                        Note that the consequences for committing Interference are very limited. Read R16 carefully. As I read it, nothing bad happens to the team who commits the Interference. Instead the rule creates a benefit for the team that is interfered with. The referees will have to try and sort out what would have happened if the interference had not occurred.

                        Note that though the mission rule does seem to define some sort of ownership of the solar panel models, I think it does so for the purposes of assigning the 18 bonus points. The mission rule does not say that teams have any particular rights or restrictions about which models they can move.



                        FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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