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  • CityShaper Mission 1

    So, I was thinking about the first mission in 2019/2020 season, there is written (in engineering notebook) that there is exception for rule 30 (interference). Should that rule be completely "ignored" while doing the first mission ? (or is it allowed to completely ignore it ?) - my question is, that whether it is allowed to put some wall on the other side of the bridge, or to "lock" in place while being on the top of the bridge ? (I saw it here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agLSE9_MRLg&t=45)
    I'm asking mainly because I'm supposed to become a coach this year, and therefore I should know (or at least try to know) everything about this season.

  • #2
    According to robot game update RG12, "robot clashes" (i.e. your robot is stronger or faster than the other robot) is allowed; however, RG12 also states "any other competitive action" is governed by the second sentence in Rule 30 "If you, your team or robot prevents another team from completing a mission, the referee will award them the points for that mission."

    Comment


    • #3
      Prior posts marked as spam for some reason so I deleted them. I didn't copy from a pdf, not sure why, hope this one gets through.

      Although the Engineering Notebook has the missions in it, it is not an official game document and should not be relied upon by a team.

      The Robot Game is governed by:
      1) Official Robot Game Updates (there are already many updates this season and more will likely be released),
      2) Missions and Field Set up,
      3) the Rules and
      4) the local Head Referee makes any final decisions after a Match, if needed. Robot Game Rules, Rule 17.

      Your question points to a great example why teams should look only to the updates online and official robot game challenge guide.
      Another example is the drone that is depicted incorrectly in the Engineering Notebook on page 7, 8, 11, 12, 20, and 21.

      The Engineering Notebook is different and incorrect compared to the online official Robot Game Guide/Updates in significant locations including:
      Page 11, Missions, Note, explanation on additional points and exception for Mission 14;
      Page 11, Mission 1, Rule 30 explanation;
      Page 12, Mission 4, identification of branch;
      Page 12, Mission 6, scoring requirements;
      Page 13, Mission 8, scoring requirements;
      Page 13, Mission 9, scoring requirements;
      Page 13, Mission 10, scoring requirements;
      Page 13, Mission 11, Rules and scoring requirements;
      Page 14, Mission 13, scoring requirements;

      There are more but, you get the idea, do not use the Engineering Notebook for any mission requirements, rules or anything, except as a general reference and for the purpose of its design as stated on page 10, a guide to move through the process of researching and completing your team's robot and project solution. All questions regarding missions must be reviewed with the Updates and official Robot Game Rules. Don't get me wrong, I like the document and it will be a great help to teams to explore this season's topic. It simply is not an official Game Guide.

      The Engineering Notebook was likely printed well in advance of the release of the City Shaper Challenge and there were changes to the actual release document posted on August 1st. It offers an interesting insight into the evolution of the challenge, game and rules but, is not an official document. The refs and judges will not be relying upon this document for scoring or judging.
      FLL coach Trash Trek on, State 4x, World 2x, ref, judge advisor.

      Comment


      • #4
        Ok, but the problem is, that I cannot get to official ducuments as we haven't registered the team yet, because we don't know how many people will be part of it.... etc. So only thing I have is the engineer's notebook (that's why I used it) with that explained - are there more information about this mission (and my question) in other (official) documents ?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by matej357 View Post
          Ok, but the problem is, that I cannot get to official ducuments as we haven't registered the team yet, because we don't know how many people will be part of it.... etc. So only thing I have is the engineer's notebook (that's why I used it) with that explained - are there more information about this mission (and my question) in other (official) documents ?
          The official Challenge documents are freely available to the public here:

          http://www.firstlegoleague.org/challenge

          Comment


          • #6
            No need to register, all the documents are posted by FIRST. Here is the link to all the documents for this season:
            https://www.firstinspires.org/resour...-and-resources

            Also, you can register a team at any time and leave the identification of the members for later. You don't need to know the names or even how many will be on the team.
            We don't create our teams until Mid-September but, I login when the registration opens about June, register a team, call the name TBD (the teams pick a new name each season depending on their Project solution), leave the member id's till later and pay the fees.
            When we actually know what kids will be on the teams, we add them to the Roster and the team starts the challenge.
            If I remember correctly, we only needed to have two coaches identified in order to register and purchase the kits.
            Good Luck this season.
            FLL coach Trash Trek on, State 4x, World 2x, ref, judge advisor.

            Comment


            • #7
              Allright, thank you for everything, but on the FLL web site of my country there are no such documents, so thank you for the link, when I asked support, they said, that we have to register. In one of the documents I can clearly see an answer to my question. So thanks again

              Comment


              • #8
                We need to be careful when answering this type of question because not everyone does FLL the same way. It varies enough between various partners that my response to almost all procedure questions is "Check with your FLL affiliate". On an international scale FLL doesn't even have the same rules for everyone. Not even for the robot game. The variation is always slight, but it is not uncommon for there to be something where not everyone agrees.

                If your local FLL website has different procedures, you must conform to what your local website and FLL affiliate tells you. USA/Canada/Mexico policies and rules are only for USA/Canada/Mexico. If your affiliate says register to see game updates, then register so you can see game updates.

                Back to the original post: Coaches do not have to know everything about the season. In particular I try to never "be the expert" when it comes to robot games rules or the research project. The team needs to know the rules and the coach should limit themselves to asking "Are you sure about that? Maybe you should check the rules." when they see something that might not fit into the rules. The coach should also accept the team's interpretation, even if the coach thinks it is wrong. The referees are always right, unless you can convince them they are wrong. After that the team is always right unless the coach can convince them they are wrong. The coach is never right. Get used to it.
                Last edited by Dean Hystad; 08-29-2019, 10:55 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Among the many reasons you have to be careful looking up information online:

                  If you use this URL:
                  https://www.first-lego-league.org/en/
                  ...you get the rules in English for Central Europe.

                  But If you use this URL:
                  https://www.firstlegoleague.org

                  ... you get the landing page where you can access all the regions. But if you use the "Challenge" link from that page, you get only the North American rules.

                  FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This still feels like Sumobots or Battlebots on an elevated surface, where the bot that isn't successful not only doesn't gain the flag points, but runs the risk of falling and a choice has to be made to incur precision point deductions by catching the bot. Currently as worded, we haven't discovered any way to cooperate with the other team for both teams to gain points. This will simply come down to being a pushing battle. A little disappointed, this year, with this mission.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Just curious, if one team uses a beam or something to push down the flag while the robot is sitting on the angled part of the bridge while the other team's robot parks a tire on the same flag, would both teams score for the same flag? If both are pressing on it and if either robot is removed, the flag stays up?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Feral_Goose View Post
                        This still feels like Sumobots or Battlebots on an elevated surface, where the bot that isn't successful not only doesn't gain the flag points, but runs the risk of falling and a choice has to be made to incur precision point deductions by catching the bot. Currently as worded, we haven't discovered any way to cooperate with the other team for both teams to gain points. This will simply come down to being a pushing battle. A little disappointed, this year, with this mission.
                        What percentage of teams will successfully make it up the ramp and get to the middle?

                        What is the chance that one of those teams is assigned to the table opposite your team during one of your teams matches?

                        If a robot falls off on its own, without another robot being involved, the team will incur a precision penalty unless the team decides to end their match.

                        Some years, the shared mission is cooperative in nature. Some years, it is competitive. In Body Forward, the first team got the points. In Senior Solutions, it was the team that "got in the last word" that got the points.
                        Last edited by philso; 09-11-2019, 09:47 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by philso View Post

                          What percentage of teams will successfully make it up the ramp and get to the middle?

                          What is the chance that one of those teams is assigned to the table opposite your team during one of your teams matches?

                          If a robot falls off on its own, without another robot being involved, the team will incur a precision penalty unless the team decides to end their match.

                          Some years, the shared mission is cooperative in nature. Some years, it is competitive. In Body Forward, the first team got the points. In Senior Solutions, it was the team that "got in the last word" that got the points.
                          With any cooperative or competitive mission there is always a chance the other team wont or can't do the mission, sure. It is always possible for a bot to get tangled up, stuck, or tipped over on any mission, sure. But none of that has any bearing on how this mission is to be done.

                          This year, points are only awarded at the end of the 2.5 minutes based on the "condition of the field", unlike last year with some missions awarded points upon completion, no matter what final condition of the mission was. The bridge flags do not have a mechanism to keep them raised, and can only continue to be raised with applied pressure to the blue beam(s). Part of the bot must be applying pressure on the blue beam(s) at the moment 2.5 minutes is up. At some point in the match, any team that decides to do this mission will be attempting to park their bot on the bridge for the rest of the duration of the match.
                          If the other team does not attempt this, then all is well.
                          If though, both teams plan on completing this mission, there will inevitably be a push battle of some sort. While strategies can vary, results will closely be the same with basic strategies (pushing). This is where team will get creative, and "Battlebot-like" tactics implemented.

                          "The only way Robot X can stop Robot Y from scoring Flag points is to be faster or stronger at scoring Flag points."

                          "Stronger" does not imply only to pushing (forward). Stronger could also imply to "pushing to the side", lifting or flipping, if done based on the design shape of the bot.
                          I don't believe a mechanism attachment (like a forklift, spinner, etc.), involving more than just a collision, would be allowed, as it wouldn't be compliant to the second sentence of rule #30. (that still applies)
                          (maybe it does, or maybe a team will choose to argue their case with a judge at each match, that their flipper or spinner device caused a 'collision")

                          Because the Mission 1 rules allows for a nullification to the first sentence of rule #30 due to a "collide" or in the update "clashes" this implies some sort of interaction due to ramming (only?). Different shape and style of wedges can result in the desired result of pushing to the side, lifting, or flipping, with only the interaction of a "collision".

                          But honestly, I still expect to see teams attempting to use Battlebot-style "weapons", even if eventually they are ruled against in the match.
                          But at what cost?
                          If this was a team implementing an illegal tactic on any other mission, at worst only a mission model might be damaged. The results from this mission with be interesting to tally up.

                          Ultimately, don't get me wrong, I love Battlebots and Robotwars. I, like my team, found myself slightly giggling at the thought of what system could be implemented to battle for the bridge. But then the coach side of my brain kicked in on how I am to be instilling core values and gracious professionalism. Those and this mission don't seem to line up.

                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          ***Scoring (rule) 35. Only the final (end-of-Match) condition of your Field is evaluated for scoring

                          ***Mission 1 Elevated places (Score all that apply)
                          ➔ If the Robot is Supported by the Bridge: 20
                          ➔ If one or more Flags are clearly raised any distance, only by the Robot: 15 Each Flag
                          You can only get Flag points if you get Bridge points.
                          Rule 31 allowance: It is okay and expected for Robots to collide while trying to earn Flag points. When clearly only one Robot is holding a Flag raised, only that Robot scores for that Flag.

                          ***Challenge Updates RG12 - BRIDGE BARRIERS NOT ALLOWED
                          The only way Robot X can stop Robot Y from scoring Flag points is to be faster or stronger at scoring Flag points. Robot clashes are expressly allowed in the text of Mission 1 by Rule 30’s first sentence, but all other competitive action is governed by Rule 30’s second sentence.

                          ***30. INTERFERENCE – Do not negatively affect the other team at the table except as allowed in a Mission description. If you, your team or your Robot prevents another team from completing a Mission, the Referee will award them the points for that Mission.
                          Last edited by Feral_Goose; 09-14-2019, 08:58 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tim Carey View Post
                            Just curious, if one team uses a beam or something to push down the flag while the robot is sitting on the angled part of the bridge while the other team's robot parks a tire on the same flag, would both teams score for the same flag? If both are pressing on it and if either robot is removed, the flag stays up?
                            Our team has been mulling around the idea of turning this mission into cooperation mission, much like how you described; laying down a platform/ramp, still firmly attached to their bot, so the other team could drive onto it, thus the combined weight is contributing to the flag being raised.

                            They even argued, using the challenge update RG11;
                            "---Therefore, the water is NOT Supported “only by” the cup (nor the book)." as " ---Therefore, the flag is NOT raised “only by” one of the bots (nor the other bot)."
                            Smart kids!

                            But alas, the last sentence of mission 1's rule does state "When clearly only one Robot is holding a Flag raised, only that Robot scores for that Flag."
                            So, 2 things could happen. Either a determination can't be made of "clearly only one Robot is holding a Flag raised", and no one gets points; or one team "only" will get the points.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Feral_Goose View Post

                              With any cooperative or competitive mission there is always a chance the other team wont or can't do the mission, sure. It is always possible for a bot to get tangled up, stuck, or tipped over on any mission, sure. But none of that has any bearing on how this mission is to be done.

                              ...
                              You have not address my first two questions. If two robots do not meet up on the bridge, all the scenarios you are writing about are moot.

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