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Mission 12 - Overlapped stacks that don't touch

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  • Mission 12 - Overlapped stacks that don't touch

    Mission 12 examples include two that have stacks that are bridged or overlapping. Because the overlapped unit is physically touching the stacks below it I can see why this would be defined as a single stack.

    My question is, what happens when you have a overlapping unit or sustainability upgrade that doesn't physically touch the adjacent stack? For example, in the first Mission 12 example, where the Tan and White units are pushed together. These are defined as individual stacks. What happens if you put a sustainability upgrade (topper) on top of the tan stack and some part of the topper overlaps the white in the air? I'm assuming they would still be defined as individual stacks, but thought I would confirm with the forum.

  • #2
    I would say that as long as the upgrade isn't actually touching the other stack, it would fulfill the "supported only by" part of the mission requirements and get the points.
    Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
    KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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    • #3
      My team has a question: Is touching considered as "SUPPORTING"? We think No.

      Rule 34. SUPPORTED – 100% of its weight is held up and kept from falling.

      What if a neighboring stack touches a sustainability upgrade? Example, If stack A is touching the upgrade on stack B, and if I can move stack A while the upgrade is still on B, then stack A is not supporting, correct? The upgrade is completely supported by B only. So, our opinion is that this upgrade will score. Are we correct?

      IMG_20190921_132743.jpg
      Last edited by sbuzz; 09-21-2019, 04:32 PM.

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      • #4
        sbuzz -- I get an "invalid file" msg when trying to look at your image. I definitely need a pic to provide an opinion. But I do agree that touching does not always result in support. My comment above was talking about the upgrade touching the top of the adjacent stack, not the side. Which is what I think you're trying to describe.
        Last edited by someonewhobikes; 09-22-2019, 12:12 PM. Reason: More words; hopefully more clarity.
        Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
        KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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        • #5
          Yes, you are correct, I meant the if the side is touching. I'll try attaching the image again.


          IMG_20190921_132743.jpg

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          • #6
            Originally posted by sbuzz View Post
            Yes, you are correct, I meant the if the side is touching. I'll try attaching the image again.
            I don't see any support by the white module, but it's hard to tell from a static pic. The way I'd tell would be to move the white module to the left; if the upgrade doesn't move there wasn't any support.
            Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
            KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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            • #7
              One thing my kids are trying to figure out is if you stack multiple red units in a red circle does the 10 points per level keep adding? For instance if two red units were stacked on each other totaling 4 levels, would that be 40 points?

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              • #8
                I think your team needs to reread the rules. By my reading, there are two different ways to earn point--color match and levels on an independent stack at least partially in a circle. Only the color match condition gets 10 points. Nothing gets 10 points per level. Have your team make sure they understand the 3 photographed examples in the rules.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by SusanMcN View Post
                  I think your team needs to reread the rules. By my reading, there are two different ways to earn point--color match and levels on an independent stack at least partially in a circle. Only the color match condition gets 10 points. Nothing gets 10 points per level. Have your team make sure they understand the 3 photographed examples in the rules.
                  I agree, the rules are clear but, take some time to understand how they all work together and playing with all the different combinations helps. The scoring opportunities are completely separate. The color matching does not have any impact on the level score and vise versa. Have your team practice putting different combinations in the circles and scoring them to see if they know the best combination. Score them in many combinations and you may find a simpler or better way to obtain points.
                  I wouldn't say that nothing gets 10 points per level though. If you're talking only about Mission 12, then I understand the statement but, there are other missions where a one level Unit can score 10 points or more. Good Luck.
                  FLL coach Trash Trek on, State 4x, World 2x, ref, judge advisor.

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                  • #10
                    Note that the color match points are based on the circle, not the stack(s). "If there are any Circles with at least one color-matching Unit Completely In, and Flat Down on the Mat: 10 Each Circle"
                    Kansas City Region Head Ref 2014-present
                    KC Region coaches and teams can ask FLL robot game rules questions at [email protected]

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                    • #11
                      Universal correct scoring of this mission is going to be an absolute nightmare.
                      FIRST LEGO League Mentor and Referee/Head Referee since 2011.

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                      • #12
                        For the good of the order, here are some examples provided by the Seshan Brothers to help teams understand the scoring:

                        M12-M13-1.pdf
                        Last edited by jasponti; 09-30-2019, 03:45 PM. Reason: Edited to provide the updated version of the unoffical guide.

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                        • #13
                          [QUOTE=jasponti;n89570]For the good of the order, here are some examples provided by the Seshan Brothers to help teams understand the scoring:

                          jasponti The images you have in your comments are not the most up-to-date version. I'll share them with you shortly. Please update your post once received. :-)

                          Update: I was unable to send you a private message with the file so I have added it to this reply.

                          Please note that this is NOT official documentation from FIRST. This was created to help resolve a ton of confusing comments that were posted in a community group on Facebook (Share & Learn). These are just some simple examples to assist teams in learning to look up, read and interpret the rules. It is not a substitute for reading the official rules. It also does not provide strategy, maximum scoring techniques, etc. Teams are encouraged to consult their Head Ref as per Rule 17, final interpretations can and will be made by a regional Head Ref.
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by sseshan; 09-30-2019, 02:47 PM.
                          Mentor: FLL 51 2011-2018 (retired, World Festival Champion's); FRC 8027 (2020-)
                          Judge: Western PA, World Festival, Razorback Open, Mountain State
                          Head Referee: Western PA Championships

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                          • #14
                            Color matching is causing me some confusion. In the game guide (first example) there is a tan module and a white module. The caption says "Color match = no". In the FLLtutorials examples S, V and W there are similar arrangements that say "color match". So what does "color match" mean? From the game guide it looks like a circle that contains modules (1 or more) that are all the same color results in 10 points for color match (per circle). I believe my interpretation is correct otherwise color match doesn't make any sense. If my interpretation is correct the FLLtutorials examples S, V and W should not get points for color match. Their examples would appear to explain the color match rule as "at least one module completely inside a circle".

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                            • #15
                              My understanding is "color match" refers to unit color matching the circle color (the color of the line forming the circle).

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