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2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

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  • jlindquist74
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    The calendar for the 2015 FRC season has already begun to coalesce, and lo! Stop Build Day is explicitly codified as 11:59pm local time Tuesday, February 17, 2015.

    (Well, okay, it says "2014". Copypasta error. The time is still unambiguous!)

    The 2015 Kickoff is already explicitly given as 10:30am US Eastern Standard Time on Saturday, January 3, 2015.

    Thanks again for the clarity on both dates!

    Leave a comment:


  • jlindquist74
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Originally posted by Dwormald View Post
    Is there any consideration to providing a delay until Thursday or Friday to make up a few of our lost snow days?
    As Gary says, FIRST's response is to increase the withholding allowance. They
    posted it to their blog on February 5th.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Voshol
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Originally posted by Dwormald View Post
    Given the historic snows we have had in the east (here in Kentucky we are closing in on the winter of 1978) it seems that we are at a disadvantage to others who have not have multiple snow days where our team is prohibited from working on our robot. Is there any consideration to providing a delay until Thursday or Friday to make up a few of our lost snow days?
    Nope. Many teams have experienced multiple snow/ice/cold days this season, from Texas to the Southeast to the East Coast to the Midwest.

    Instead of extending time, FIRST has changed the withholding allowance from 30 to 45 pounds. You can now bring 45 pounds of fabricated parts with you to your event, and add them to your robot that you take out of the bag.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dwormald
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Given the historic snows we have had in the east (here in Kentucky we are closing in on the winter of 1978) it seems that we are at a disadvantage to others who have not have multiple snow days where our team is prohibited from working on our robot. Is there any consideration to providing a delay until Thursday or Friday to make up a few of our lost snow days?

    Leave a comment:


  • jlindquist74
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    We finally have an official answer, in the form of Q335:

    A. Midnight at the end of the day on Tuesday. At the moment that Tuesday becomes Wednesday.
    Thank you, that's perfect. As there are new teams each year, and new people within existing teams, not everyone is exposed to the tribal knowledge common to veterans. We'll serve them better if the language in next year's manual is this clear.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kevin O'Connor
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Jason, I definitely see what you are referring to now. Again, my apologies for any wasted time. Note that you will need your team's official account info for the Q&A from TIMS to submit the question.

    Leave a comment:


  • jlindquist74
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Kevin, thank you. Yes, the Q&A link appears to be what I'm looking for. The manual is ambiguous when held up in past context.

    Gary: I interpret "you may work on your robot until midnight on that date" to mean 12:00am Tuesday February 18, 2014. One minute after 11:59pm Monday February 17, and one minute before 12:01am Tuesday February 18. But I work in software, so the time() system call and its cousins are a big influence.

    Unfortunately, that's just my interpretation. That language can, in fact, be interpreted to mean either the start of Tuesday, or the end of Tuesday. The National Institute of Standards and Technology cautions about this ambiguity!

    Let's look back at 2013. In the 2013 Admin Manual section 5.1, we see the exact same language as in 2014, except for the date:

    Note that “Stop Build Day” is a specific date, so you may work on your robot until midnight on that date in whatever time zone you are working.
    STOP BUILD DAY is TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 2013
    And then let's look at what actually happened last February. I have a photo, which I took, open in Preview of our team bagging its 2013 robot. The time shown in the EXIF tag is "2013:02:19 23:59:40"

    A sample of Twitter traffic shows that it's not just us. Note all timestamps:
    Here's our neighbors, Team 1538 and Team 3255.
    Team 1648 also appears to have finished Tuesday night, reading between the lines here and here.
    Just before 10pm, Team 3328 believed they had two hours left.
    And Tuesday morning, Team 3683 was beginning their "last day to build"

    Hopefully, the FIRST Q&A forum will tell us what some other people won't: Were all six teams I mentioned in violation last season, and would we be violators again this year if we followed the same interpretation of Rule 5.1?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kevin O'Connor
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Jason, as Gary has mentioned, I unfortunately cannot answer the question directly here, that must be done through the Q&A system he linked. I was trying to get you a quicker answer by pointing towards the location in the manual with the answer to your question rather than shunting you directly to the Q&A system, my apologies if I have instead caused confusion and more time to be wasted.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Voshol
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Sorry to be a bit rude, but what part of "you may work on your robot until midnight on that date" do you not understand?

    If that's not good enough, the only place you can get an official answer is at the Q&A: https://frc-qa.usfirst.org/Questions.php You have to log in with your TIMS account to ask a question.

    Leave a comment:


  • jlindquist74
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    I have two teachers here, long-time team coaches, who keep saying that we will work on all of Tuesday the 18th, and stop when the clock strikes midnight. They say this is consistent with years past. I want to know if we need to alter those plans.

    Every message I have ever sent to [email protected], on any subject, has gone unanswered. A new frcteams message just hit my inbox that does not clarify this. Is there another way to reach a definitive authority? Sadly, we are not getting anywhere here.

    We are calling it "Stop Build Day". Does that mean we stop at the END of the day? Or do we stop at the BEGINNING of the day? Because "midnight" is the FIRST moment of a calendar day.

    Again, the answer to a question phrased this way, will settle the whole issue: If we are working at 9am on Tuesday February 18, 2014, are we violating rule 5.1?

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom Mosher
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Perhaps "Build Period" would be a better choice, allowing both a start date-time and an end date-time.

    Leave a comment:


  • jross
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Originally posted by Gary Voshol View Post
    Section 5.1:
    Note that “Stop Build Day” is a specific date, so you may work on your robot until midnight on that date in whatever time zone you are working.
    I think that's pretty conclusive.
    You have to admit that using the word day, to specify a specific time on a specific day is less then ideal.

    R14:
    The ROBOT (including items intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT, excluding items permitted per R18) must be bagged or crated (as appropriate for your event), and out of Team hands by Stop Build Day, February 18, 2014 (refer to the FRC Administrative Manual, Section 5 for more details).
    Stop Build Day implies a day, and by implies before. Therefore midnight February 17 is a reasonable conclusion, until you read section 5. I'm not an English major, but there's probably a better word to use then day. Even Stop Build Time is better then Stop Build Day. Using unambiguous terms is always better then having to define a new term.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gary Voshol
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Section 5.1:
    Note that “Stop Build Day” is a specific date, so you may work on your robot until midnight on that date in whatever time zone you are working.
    (emphasis mine)

    I think that's pretty conclusive.

    Leave a comment:


  • jlindquist74
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Originally posted by Kevin O'Connor View Post
    Searching the manual using the search box in the top right of http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/ may help resolve that question.
    Then again, it may not.

    Let's rephrase it into something that might be easier to answer: If your team is working on your robot at 9AM local time on Tuesday, February 18, 2014, have you violated Rule 5.1?

    Leave a comment:


  • Kevin O'Connor
    replied
    Re: 2014: Times of Kickoff and Stop Build

    Originally posted by evanpate View Post
    We're wondering the same thing about stop build. Our mentor team is saying midnight Mon, 2/17; however, the schedule says Tue, 2/18 with no time.
    Searching the manual using the search box in the top right of http://frc-manual.usfirst.org/ may help resolve that question.

    Leave a comment:

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